OotS 406

[Nifft]

I'm not particularly a Miko-hater. She was an interesting Paladin.

Now, though, not so much. She's fallen so hard and fast I wouldn't be surprised if she made a new Gate on her way out the other side of the world.

Hello, Darth Miko!

-- N

 

[sniffles]

I have now concluded that Rich Burlew is the #1 Rat Bastard DM, hands down.

 

[Voadam]

Here is clearly where you and I part company. I just don't see how anybody could think that killing Shojo was not an Evil act- he was a defenseless old man sitting in a chair, and she'd already admitted he didn't Detect as Evil. Regardless of what he'd recently been doing, killing him was Evil. Even if this is Miko's first genuinely Evil act- which I granted you above- she loses her Paladin powers for this, instantly and inarguably.

This is the crucial issue. If it is an evil act then she falls under the RAW.

I find his physical defenselessness irrelevant.

I find his failure to detect as evil irrelevant.

I find the recent revelations relevant.

I can see how killing him can be not an evil act and I would therefore rule on not losing paladin powers in my game.

 

[blargney the second]

Miko = Jaime Lannister?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I'm waiting for the day that Rich redesigns a classic D&D monster, so the argue-about-rules-in-OotS threads can finally achieve infinite mass and become a black hole.

 

[Nifft]

Miko = Jaime Lannister?

Jamie has Evasion?!

-- N

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Miko = Jaime Lannister?

Miko = Mace Windu.

IMO, this whole scene is intended as a recasting of the Mace & Anakin confront Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, with Shojo as Palps, Miko as Mace and Hinjo as Anakin. Obviously with a different background, outcome and right answer - but to me, the changes only serve to highlight the parallels (possibly even to make this scene a commentary on the one in Ep. 3?).

Mace was breaking the jedi code by attempting to strike down an apparently helpless Palpatine... = Miko is breaking the paladin code by striking down helpless Shojo...

... because he believed the Senate could or would not deal with Palpatine because he has corrupted them... = ... because she believes the magistrates could or would not deal with Shojo because he has corrupted them...

... as well as believing Palpatine is actually working in concert with the Separatists to achieve dictatorial control... = ... as well as believing Shojo is working with Xykon to achieve dictatorial control...

... while Anakin looks on in stunned horror as his mentor and friend, who he nonetheless was willing to condemn and deal with legally, is about to be executed. = ... while Hinjo looks on in stunned horror as his uncle and mentor, who he nonetheless was willing to condemn and deal with legally, is executed.

Now, the big differences are a) Palpatine is actually conspiring with the Separatists and is faking being helpless, whereas Shojo isn't guilty (presumably), b) Anakin stops Mace, whereas Hinjo doesn't (again, presumably - we don't *know* Shojo is dead), and c) Roy and Belkar are present as observers. However, R&B appear to be, for purposes of this scene, purely observers, completely removed from the action.

 

[brehobit]

Declaring all laws of her realm invalid on the spot ("The laws have no meaning!") and electing yourself judge, jury, and executioner so you can kill a defenseless old man in a fit of anger has to be a violation of Lawful Good somehow or anyone with a weak rationalization for their behavior would be Lawful Good.

Agreed.

Mark

 

[Voadam]

Miko = Mace Windu.

IMO, this whole scene is intended as a recasting of the Mace & Anakin confront Palpatine in Revenge of the Sith, with Shojo as Palps, Miko as Mace and Hinjo as Anakin. Obviously with a different background, outcome and right answer - but to me, the changes only serve to highlight the parallels (possibly even to make this scene a commentary on the one in Ep. 3?).

Mace was breaking the jedi code by attempting to strike down an apparently helpless Palpatine... = Miko is breaking the paladin code by striking down helpless Shojo...

... because he believed the Senate could or would not deal with Palpatine because he has corrupted them... = ... because she believes the magistrates could or would not deal with Shojo because he has corrupted them...

... as well as believing Palpatine is actually working in concert with the Separatists to achieve dictatorial control... = ... as well as believing Shojo is working with Xykon to achieve dictatorial control...

... while Anakin looks on in stunned horror as his mentor and friend, who he nonetheless was willing to condemn and deal with legally, is about to be executed. = ... while Hinjo looks on in stunned horror as his uncle and mentor, who he nonetheless was willing to condemn and deal with legally, is executed.

Now, the big differences are a) Palpatine is actually conspiring with the Separatists and is faking being helpless, whereas Shojo isn't guilty (presumably), b) Anakin stops Mace, whereas Hinjo doesn't (again, presumably - we don't *know* Shojo is dead), and c) Roy and Belkar are present as observers. However, R&B appear to be, for purposes of this scene, purely observers, completely removed from the action.

Neat analysis.

 

[Delta]

See what I mean? She's taking it to an extreme that'll ruin her in the end, but from her (or perhaps her player's) perspective, she's still following the Code...

But this is the whole point of the "Good and evil are not philosophical concepts in the D&D game" line in the PHB. The perspective of her or her player don't matter. Somewhere there's an objective line she doesn't get to cross (largely dictated by detect evil), and this strip was it.

It's tough being a paladin. Arguably they don't get enough benefits to reward them for the code of coduct and alignment restrictions (in 3E).