OotS 452

[WizarDru]

"We sneer at honor, and then are shocked to find traitors in our midst."

C.S. Lewis

That's the second online discussion I've been in today where someone's quoted C.S. Lewis. Funny, that.

 

[Pbartender]

I don't think so.... answer soon to come !

I don't think so either... More likely they drive him off with a few ghostly losses.

Or it turns into a stalemate, where the ghosts can't effectively hurt Xykon, but Xykon can't complete the necessary rituals for all the harrassment from the ghosts.

 

[DreadArchon]

They don't die for no reason. They attempt to hold the line for as long as possible - with the hope that they will either get reinforcements, or that they will buy enough time for the other defenders to build a new defensive line.

Ridiculous. They know reinforcements aren't coming. Had their own army not run away they may have had a hope of a chance (not that they'd actually have had a chance), but after the cop-out, it was over. Durkon could maybe drop a few dozen Hobgobbos with a Flame Strike or two, but there's no chance of (at best) two dozen CR <2 mooks taking on someone who can cast Extended Summon Monster VII just because it's stylish, even less so when he has multiple armies as support.

Of course, that's rather dependent on you, the leader, having a superior military force to that of the nobles.

It wouldn't take much. ("Hey, level 5 Druid guy, Wild Shape into a fish and go Warp Wood all of their boats.")

 

[Pbartender]

...someone who can cast Extended Summon Monster VII just because it's stylish...

You know... I don't understand where people are getting the impression that Redcloak is tossing off that spell as a sort of afterthought.

I can't help but see it as him pulling out his big(gest) guns with that spell in a slightly desperate attempt to rally his troops and end the battle in one swift stroke, rather than continue suffering excessive and meaningless losses.

 

[Donovan Morningfire]

As cowardly as it may have seemed, I have to give V props for his/her actions in this one. S/He knew that s/he was of no use, and was smart enough not to carelessly throw away his/her life on a lost cause; i.e. picking up a bow and plinking away at the oncoming horde. Was it cowardly? On several levels yes, but it was also practical and pragmatic, something that V is in spades. Strongly thinking V is either Neutral Good or True Neutral; too rigid to be chaotic, but too flexible to be lawful, especially in regards to tormenting Belkar after "The Event."

 

[orsal]

As cowardly as it may have seemed, I have to give V props for his/her actions in this one. S/He knew that s/he was of no use, and was smart enough not to carelessly throw away his/her life on a lost cause; i.e. picking up a bow and plinking away at the oncoming horde. Was it cowardly? On several levels yes, but it was also practical and pragmatic, something that V is in spades. Strongly thinking V is either Neutral Good or True Neutral; too rigid to be chaotic, but too flexible to be lawful, especially in regards to tormenting Belkar after "The Event."

I decided Vaarsuvius is probably LN after the incident of billing Miko for services rendered. However, vhe is also very clever, and I'm sure has a plan that involves being invisible while doing something which will turn out quite decisive in the battle. I just don't know what that something is, except that it doesn't involve casting any spells.

 

[Celebrim]

As cowardly as it may have seemed, I have to give V props for his/her actions in this one. S/He knew that s/he was of no use, and was smart enough not to carelessly throw away his/her life on a lost cause; i.e. picking up a bow and plinking away at the oncoming horde. Was it cowardly? On several levels yes, but it was also practical and pragmatic, something that V is in spades.

V is a different case from the other soldiers. As far as I can tell, she was not given military authority over anyone but the 13 soldiers that she mass buffed. Since I presume that they are dead at this point, she is absolved of any duty to be on the line. No one is depending on her, and she's done her part. Her duty is discharged.

Where I fault the soldiers that ran, is that it is a failure of discipline. No one gave the order to run. Sure, the CO is dead, and probably many of the other officers, but you can't tell me that the entire chain of command in a lawful society has disentigrated. Some one is in charge or should be, and that someone should make the judgment as to whether they should stand and fight here or retreat in an orderly fashion back to the keep or some other defensible position. It isn't up to an ordinary soldier to make that call, and in ancient warfare in particular, the vast majority of casualties are generated in the rout phase of the battle when one sides displine breaks. By running, they are dooming those that stay and in all probability themselves. Moreover, by routing, they are putting the other end of the line at risk of being entrapped and destroyed as well. It's not choosing between living and dying, its choosing between dying and someone else (or everyone else) dying.

Now, V can't be faulted, but if V was a Hero then when no one took charge, V should have taken charge. If I'd been on that wall, I would have been looking for somewhere else more useful to die as well, but either we all go or we all stay. I think V reasonably would have been percieved as having Authority, and could have (and should have) given the order to retreat to somewhere that made more sense, either toward the other end of the wall to provide cover for the retreat of the other flank (ideally, much of the force of the charge would have blown right by them), or back to the keep to begin a second line of defence. But, V is V, and has terrible people skills, both communicating with and understanding people. So, that didn't happen and alot of people died needlessly. Things would have likely gone very differently if Roy or even Elan(!) was stationed here.

But once again, where are the sub-commanders? Why didn't someone take charge? Right now, the hobgoblins are showing alot more discipline and honor than the inhabitants of Azure City. Thier morale isn't faltering. Thier chain of command didn't crumble. They aren't saying, "Heh, I'm not going to die for anyone else. I'm getting out of here." Once again, the Azure City folks look pretty incompotent.

 

[Pbartender]

Right now, the hobgoblins are showing alot more discipline and honor than the inhabitants of Azure City. Thier morale isn't faltering. Thier chain of command didn't crumble. They aren't saying, "Heh, I'm not going to die for anyone else. I'm getting out of here." Once again, the Azure City folks look pretty incompotent.

No, its just appropriate and thorough application of the MM descriptive text. To wit:

These creatures have a strong grasp of strategy and tactics and are capable of carrying out sophisticated battle plans. Under the leadership of a skilled strategist or tactician, their discipline can prove a deciding factor.

Which is pretty much exactly what we're seeing.

 

[Gez]

Also, the Hobgoblins have an overwhelming drive toward lawfulness -- "usually lawful evil" means that the majority of them are LE, the remainder being mostly LN or NE (within one step of the typical alignment).

 

[Celebrim]

No, its just appropriate and thorough application of the MM descriptive text...Which is pretty much exactly what we're seeing.

I'm by no means suggesting that Rich is 'playing the hobgoblins badly'. I believe he's being perfectly true to hobgoblin character, and showing a finer understanding of Lawful Evil-ness than say every single writer that's ever written about the nine hells.

What I'm saying is that one would have suspected that a city founded by and ruled by Paladins would have the same sort of military culture as the hobgoblins.