Open locks, take 10 or 20?

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I can't seem to find this answer in the books. Can you take 10 or 20 when using the open lock skill?

I know if there is no danger, you can take 10. But what if there is a trap within the locked chest? If I say they can't take 10, then they'll know there is danger. So does this answer my question, you can't take 10 or 20 with the open lock skill?

It is not the failure of the Open Lock check that triggers the trap, it is generally hampering with the trapped device that triggers it.
If the trap resets itself (at any time during the open lock attempt), it would be impossible to take 20, as the lock-picker is in a stressful enviroment (unless you have the Rogue's Skill Mastery ability on Open Lock, which would allow you to ignore this restriction - but that would mean that he is constantly triggering the trap, until he is finished.)
Once the trap has been disarmed or does no longer reset, taking 20 is possible.

 

[irdeggman]

Well..... it's an extremely common house rule that it does so, but it doesn't state that it does anywhere (that I'm aware of, at least). You can't take 20 when there's a consequence for failure (e.g., the Disable Device by 5 or more making you *think* it worked, the 1,000 foot plummet when Climbing The World's Tallest Cliff, the "ruined materials" aspect of Craft, et cetera) anyway, so it normally won't matter, though. There's no note under Open Lock that there's a consequence for failure, so unless there's an orc swinging a sword over your head or some such, go for it.

Sort of correct.

As Hyp pointed out the rule is that taking 20 has at least 1 failure along the way. So regardless as to whether a 1 fails or not you have a failure and thus the consequences of one. Basically it doesn't matter what the roll to fail is if you take 20 then you are sssuming to have at least 1 failure. Now if you can't possibly fail - a roll of a 1 with all corresponding modifiers would yield a success then you don't need to roll - this is something the DM needs to keep track of and inform the player when they are attempting the skill.

Note that a natural 1 is not an automatic failure except for attack rolls and saving throws. A natural 20 is not an automatic success except for attack rolls and saving throws. Many people make the mistake of assuming this rule also applies to skill checks or make it a house-rule that it does.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Now if you can't possibly fail - a roll of a 1 with all corresponding modifiers would yield a success then you don't need to roll - this is something the DM needs to keep track of and inform the player when they are attempting the skill.

Is a player automatically informed of the DC required for every action, though?

There's a difference, I think, between "It doesn't look like the lock will give you any trouble", and "The lock is DC 20 to open".

I can imagine certain types of player responding to the first with "Well, I'm in no rush - I may as well Take 20 anyway", while the second gives them exact numbers. And should they necessarily know exact numbers?

-Hyp.

 

[Nail]

Not really.

 

[Patlin]

Normally, I take 10 on a roll like open lock before taking 20. On difficult locks, it only takes a few seconds longer. On simple locks, it saves a lot of time.

 

[RigaMortus2]

So if Taking 20 assumes you fail at least once.... Are there any skills where if you fail by a certain number (usually 5 or more) there are other consequences? For example, if you fail a Climb check by 5 or more, you fall. I wonder if when Taking 20 with these skills, what the failure is assumed to be. Fail by 1? Fail by maximum amount?

My guess is, there aren't any skills you can Take 20 on which also have the "Fail by 5 or more" rule/consequences.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Normally, I take 10 on a roll like open lock before taking 20. On difficult locks, it only takes a few seconds longer. On simple locks, it saves a lot of time.

We usually use the Take 3.14 rule.

 

[Michael Silverbane]

My guess is, there aren't any skills you can Take 20 on which also have the "Fail by 5 or more" rule/consequences.

That is correct, since there is a consequence for failure (even though it is a consequence for abysmal failure, and not run-of-the-mill failure), you cannot take 20 on those skills.

Later
silver

 

[hafrogman]

We usually use the Take 3.14 rule.

Kill the orc, take its pi?

 

[irdeggman]

Is a player automatically informed of the DC required for every action, though?

There's a difference, I think, between "It doesn't look like the lock will give you any trouble", and "The lock is DC 20 to open".

I can imagine certain types of player responding to the first with "Well, I'm in no rush - I may as well Take 20 anyway", while the second gives them exact numbers. And should they necessarily know exact numbers?

-Hyp.

That is not what I said.

I said the

Now if you can't possibly fail - a roll of a 1 with all corresponding modifiers would yield a success then you don't need to roll - this is something the DM needs to keep track of and inform the player when they are attempting the skill.

I didn't say the DM informs the player of the DC but that he has to keep track of {skill modifiers for the player and DC of the check} and then he can inform the player that he succeeds when the player states he is making the attempt.


There are some skill checks the DM is supposed to be making for the player like Disable Device checks where this is really easy to apply.