Opinion: PoL and high tiers do not fit in the long run

[xechnao]

The problem is, you are assuming that magic is widespread and commonplace. There is no reason for this assumption. There's no real reason why it isn't true either. It might be, it might not be.

But, only in the last 100 years have we even remotely become "non PoL". Instant communication and rapid travel have only been with us for a couple of generations. Go back more than 100 years in North America and you have a PoL setting despite the fact that we had technology far and away more advanced than what is assumed by D&D.

Even 3rd world countries are more technologically advanced than any 15th century country.

But, even if the 30th level characters "win" this time, in short order, they will die of old age. Then something comes up that tips the balance the other way. Natural disaster, demonic invasion that isn't stopped in time this time, whatever. Now we're back to PoL.

Also, you are assuming that PoL means the entire world. That each and every part of the world is in the exactly same situation. There's no reason for that assumption. You could have long standing, stable nation states in a PoL setting quite easily. Look at the Roman Empire. Perfect example. Everything outside the Empire is PoL and, even within the Empire, there's still lots of PoL places. Other than the city of Rome and a few other cities, you have an entire continent of PoL.

You assumptions are flawed and unsupportable. You are assuming that whenever you get 30th level characters, they will be able to stabilize an entire world. There's nothing to suggest that. At best, they might be able to stabilize a nation or, even a continent. But, after their death, there's nothing preventing dissolution.

If there is a power level such as d&d level 30 and people can't secure their safety in the world they will eventually perish. It is as simple as that. So PoL and d&d level 30 does not make any sense.

 

[DandD]

Indeed. But if 4e Forgotten Realms is PoL I will have to remain 3e.

Then remain with 3e. Everybody already knows that the Forgotten Realms was changed to fit the new PoL-idea. You're way behind your news, appearantly.

 

[Incenjucar]

If there is a power level such as d&d level 30 and people can't secure their safety in the world they will eventually perish. It is as simple as that. So PoL and d&d level 30 does not make any sense.

Cite evidence for this claim.

 

[xechnao]

Cite evidence for this claim.

It is probabilities. Noone can cite evidence that you will eventualy roll a 20 on D20 repeated roll attempts. But we both know that this will happen sooner or later.

 

[Nymrohd]

People are grossly overestimating the power of a level 30 character. Even if a group of level 30 players ascend and become deities, that does not mean they are any more powerful than any of the other established deities. They are not omniscient or omnipotent, so if a huge rift to the far realm opens people will still have to face great difficulties.Not to mention that deities in 4E are assumed to not interfere with the World on a large scale.
And if they are not deities they can do their best and secure a truly large area under secure command. But the entire world? People would resist such expansionism, especially larger point of light with established power structures.
4E D&D also seems to cover epic level threats of many kinds. The planes are far closer than before, and a horde of demons can easily overwhelm a group of level 30s and their armies.
Moreover you are making the assumption that the PoL World is finite. I am not even talking about the planes here. Why does the material plane have to be finite? I've had 2 full-blown homebrews in my gaming life and they were all flat worlds with the potential of infinite exploration.
And why if evil can defeat level 30 characters does that mean the world will perish? Most forms of evil would prefer to enslave and rule. The ones who prefer to destroy are too chaotic to succeed in routing a resistance.
The PoL setting is one that assumes that past heroes helped raise empires. And eventually those heroes grew old and died or withdrew from the affairs of the mortal world and the empires they helped found crumbled against some major threat or because of court bickering.

Now if you fail to understand that at some points characters should be retired, or you simply enjoy beating a dead horse, then feel free.

 

[DandD]

xechnao, just because you have been chased away from the skullknight-boards because of trolling doesn't give you the right to make up things and state non-sense again. Behave, please.

 

[pukunui]

People are grossly overestimating the power of a level 30 character. Even if a group of level 30 players ascend and become deities, that does not mean they are any more powerful than any of the other established deities. They are not omniscient or omnipotent, so if a huge rift to the far realm opens people will still have to face great difficulties.Not to mention that deities in 4E are assumed to not interfere with the World on a large scale.
And if they are not deities they can do their best and secure a truly large area under secure command. But the entire world? People would resist such expansionism, especially larger point of light with established power structures.
4E D&D also seems to cover epic level threats of many kinds. The planes are far closer than before, and a horde of demons can easily overwhelm a group of level 30s and their armies.
Moreover you are making the assumption that the PoL World is finite. I am not even talking about the planes here. Why does the material plane have to be finite? I've had 2 full-blown homebrews in my gaming life and they were all flat worlds with the potential of infinite exploration.
And why if evil can defeat level 30 characters does that mean the world will perish? Most forms of evil would prefer to enslave and rule. The ones who prefer to destroy are too chaotic to succeed in routing a resistance.
The PoL setting is one that assumes that past heroes helped raise empires. And eventually those heroes grew old and died or withdrew from the affairs of the mortal world and the empires they helped found crumbled against some major threat or because of court bickering.

Now if you fail to understand that at some points characters should be retired, or you simply enjoy beating a dead horse, then feel free.

Well said, Nymrohd.

 

[Crothian]

If there is a power level such as d&d level 30 and people can't secure their safety in the world they will eventually perish. It is as simple as that. So PoL and d&d level 30 does not make any sense.

First of all you have to remember it is a game. All you have to do is say the in your PoL setting this is how it is now. If you want to add stories on other heroes that tried and failed that came before go ahead. Start the characters at level 1 and go from there. If after three years the characters are now level 30 and have turned your setting into a Utopia then great!! That's a good long running campaign that ended far away from where it started. I'm really not seeing where the problem is.

 

[Kunimatyu]

The whole Light in Pol has only 5 adventurers to rise every generation ?? And how much does the darkness ? 4, 5 or 6?? :\
Every generation will have its chance. If it fails the next generation will have its chance too. Eventually the balance will be tipped. If not a certain force or reason will have to exist for not to.

Remember that D&D isn't a world simulator, it's just the backdrop for stories about your PCs.

 

[xechnao]

People are grossly overestimating the power of a level 30 character. Even if a group of level 30 players ascend and become deities, that does not mean they are any more powerful than any of the other established deities. They are not omniscient or omnipotent, so if a huge rift to the far realm opens people will still have to face great difficulties.Not to mention that deities in 4E are assumed to not interfere with the World on a large scale.
And if they are not deities they can do their best and secure a truly large area under secure command. But the entire world? People would resist such expansionism, especially larger point of light with established power structures.
4E D&D also seems to cover epic level threats of many kinds. The planes are far closer than before, and a horde of demons can easily overwhelm a group of level 30s and their armies.
Moreover you are making the assumption that the PoL World is finite. I am not even talking about the planes here. Why does the material plane have to be finite? I've had 2 full-blown homebrews in my gaming life and they were all flat worlds with the potential of infinite exploration.

In an infinite world there can be no sense since it is infinte. Hence I am right
In d&d we had the sense of alignment. In the real world we have the sense of our society. Now in your infinity there is no sense anymore. The world is just locked somehow in infinite PoL.

And why if evil can defeat level 30 characters does that mean the world will perish? Most forms of evil would prefer to enslave and rule. The ones who prefer to destroy are too chaotic to succeed in routing a resistance.

If level 30 characters can defeat evil, they will destroy it. If evil does not do the same and can secure its control then you will not have PoL but a setting of doomed damnation. If evil does not destroy "good" and can't secure its control then evil will eventually be destroyed.