Opinions on a DM-players conflict last night...

[Umbran]

How do I reason with a guy like this?

Well, we could try using reason backed by evidence.

Get out a DMG for him. Open it to page 100 and 101, the section marked "Challenge Ratings and Encounters". Also have him read the bottom of page 101, "What's Challenging?"

Then got ot page 145, "Character Wealth"

That will provide most of your ammunition for the following points -

1) The CR system assumes that the characters follow the wealth guidelines. If the party is not so equipped, they must be considered to have fewer "resources", and can thus not handle encounters a fully equipped party might handle easily. The CR system assumes that the 12th level fighter is likely to have +3 weapons and armor, the 7th level folks should have about +2 weapons and armor.

2) If much of the spell power of the party has already been used on another encounter (the wards), they should be understood to have even fewer resources.

Then ask him if he bothered to think about how the party was supposed to damage a monster with high DR if you had few spells and no potent weapons. I think he will answer that he didn't think about it, that he took the CR on faith.

Then ask him if taking it on faith now seems like a good idea. I think this example will prove to him that CR is only intended as a guideline.

 

[Spatula]

If it was a regular golem from the MM, then it was probably immune to all but a few spells, had massive DR and possibly further weapon immunities on top of that (clay golems, frex, are immune to slashing and piercing weapons). So it sounds like you couldn't have beaten it. However:

Last night, the party was getting ready to camp for the night after having been working on taking down some magical barriers surrounding a cave. As we were about to do so, out of the forest comes crashing some huge golem-like creature who is supposedly the guardian of the cave. Since he was between us and freedom (the cave was on the other side),

The cave was freedom? I thought the cave was surrounded by magical barriers. Were you in the forest, and if so why didn't you run when you realized you were screwed? Or were the barriers inside the cave, and you were stuck between them and the cave exit?

In the future you should invest in some tanglefoot bags. My group escaped from a similarly unwinnable battle against a golem with one, those things are great.

 

[Keith]

You have a good DM, I think, and should enjoy his games. He is doing what far more DMs should be: creating a dangerous world where caution is needed to gain reward. Blocked yourself in a unknown cave, without a watch outside, and couldn't escape what came along? It happens, and it is not a DMs fault. The idea that you will only encounter creatures you can beat, whatever point of your career you are in, or what condition, is without merit, and is not all supported by the D&D books. The fact that this kind of thing can happen should make your game a lot more enjoyable, not the opposite, I think.

 

[Spatula]

Speaking as the former GM of one group in which was a player who threw a die at me while loudly proclaiming that "A shadow is a CR 3 monster and we're only level 1!," I can only say "Amen!" to Crothian's trenchant observations.

You threw a shadow at a lvl 1 party? That's evil!

 

[Sir Whiskers]

If the only disagreement is over whether your party could have defeated the creature, ask the GM to recreate the battle, only he plays the characters and you run the creature. See if he can defeat it without any special knowledge of its weaknesses or abilities. Keep an open mind - if he shows you a tactic or two that would have worked, remember for the next time you're in a tough spot. If, on the other hand, he can't stop the creature short of "cheating" (using knowledge the party didn't have the other night), then you've made your point and hopefully he'll keep it in mind when designing encounters. Or...just accept what happened and move on. One bad encounter does not a lousy GM make.

If, on the other hand, you really think he engineered a TPK just to change the characters or campaign, your group needs to sit down and discuss this - rationally - with the GM. There's something seriously wrong if a GM is resorting to such tactics, or even if his players actually believe he did so. I'm sensing there's a serious trust issue here that needs to be resolved. Both the players and GM should realize that good games are a combination of player and GM cooperation and trust.

 

[LostSoul]

You have a good DM, I think, and should enjoy his games.

Yes! You must enjoy his games! or be struck down by holy hellfire from the DM Gods!

 

[GuardianLurker]

I'm assuming here that no-one in the party had prepared (or was able to prepare) Magic Weapon or Greater Magic Weapon, and didn't have any magic items (scrolls, potions, wands, etc) that are known to temporarily increase weapon enhancement bonuses?

Because even a little piddly +1 bump (available as a 1st level spell) would have let your fighter damage it. Assuming it's "Crunchy on the outside and gooey in the middle", it might even have been a reasonable encounter.

I'd be checking your equipment lists, hard.

I had a similar problem once - an encounter that required a potion of sweet water to defeat. The party had one. Had had one for many, many levels. Did they remember? No. Luckily it was mostly a plot-encounter, not a combat encounter, so they weren't in danger of TPK, but still.

I haven't tailored an encounter to that level of specifity since. Maybe that's what happened here?

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Because even a little piddly +1 bump (available as a 1st level spell) would have let your fighter damage it.

Magic Weapon and Greater Magic Weapon provide an enhancement bonus to a weapon and thus do not stack with the enhancement bonus of a magic weapon (because they are both enhancement bonuses). Therefore, the fighter's +2 weapon would not be affected by Magic Weapon at all, nor Greater Magic Weapon cast by an 8th level or lower caster.

 

[clark411]

Have each member of the group give their character sheets (or photocopies of them) to the DM, and ask him to run an encounter in his own time against said beastie with the spells / items you had available. See what he finds. Very often DMs can get so wrapped up in listed CR that they won't realize that the player characters cannot handle it, regardless.

 

[magnas_veritas]

Re: Re: Opinions on a DM-players conflict last night...

The cave was freedom? I thought the cave was surrounded by magical barriers. Were you in the forest, and if so why didn't you run when you realized you were screwed? Or were the barriers inside the cave, and you were stuck between them and the cave exit?

There's insufficent data at this time to determine the layout of the combat. However, given that one of the party tried to run, and was waxed by the big thing's AoO, that suggests a relatively constricted battlefield; no one in their right mind flees from an encounter by going within threat range of an opponent unless they (a) don't have a choice or (b) think they can take the hit and keep running.

Now, having things in the world that the PCs can't defeat at their level isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's possible that the party was in WAY over its head by trying to go into the cave, and either didn't heed the DM's hints to that effect, or there were no hints at all. At present, we have no data on that, but the DM did (for some reason) expect the party to be able to beat it.

Brad