D&D 5E Opinions on Bladesinger

[FormerlyHemlock]

I think you made a small error.
At 5th level the damage to the 2nd creature from green flame blade is 1d8+ ability mod.

Thank you, good catch. Deduct about 20% from the Bladesinger's DPR against orcs.

 

[psychophipps]

1.) I'm AFB, but I believe Githyanki all have Misty Step, which kills that strategy, at least in close terrain.
2.) People on these forums get weird about melee kiting--it tends to start arguments over what the terrain is, how big rooms are, who has surprise, what visual range is, etc.
3.) Nevertheless, you are correct that 40' movement is a big advantage which is often overlooked. Even if you're already in melee with a githyanki knight as a bladesinger, you could choose to eat one opportunity attack by moving 40' away, in order to deny the githyanki his multiattack on his turn. If he didn't have Misty Step this would cut your damage taken by 50%, but since he does it instead increases your damage taken by 50%.
4.) You're right that Fire Bolt + kiting is a better strategy for the bladesinger, but that's equally true for any wizard, because Expeditious Retreat and/or Longstrider. The numbers were intended to focus on pure melee DPR, but kiting is part of that "bladesinger is a full wizard" aspect I mentioned under Additional Factors.

Umm...double move 40' + 40' is longer than 30' + 30' Misty Step. Also, the Bladesinger can disengage, move 40' and Misty Step themselves to get out of melee range of a 30' move + Misty.

 

[Xeviat]

I see where you're coming from here. If you go for 6 encounters per long rest and equally space them with 2 short rests in the middle, you get 2 encounters per short rest exactly. However, the recommendation is not 6, but 6 to 8. When you have 7 or 8, there are extra battes in there... which may or may not require limited use abilities depending upon difficulty, but I would challenge that any battle, even an easy one, where no limited use ability is worth being used is a wasted opportunity and probably is going to be a bit boring.

...

All games are different, but if you try to follow the recommended guidelines, I think you'll find a lot of 3 and 4 encounters per short rest situations.

Not to harp on this, but here's the break down of Daily XP Budget divided by Medium Encounter XP budget:

Lvl Med/Day
1 6.00
2 6.00
3 8.00
4 6.80
5 7.00
6 6.67
7 6.67
8 6.67
9 6.82
10 7.50
11 6.56
12 5.75
13 6.14
14 5.77
15 6.43
16 6.25
17 6.41
18 6.43
19 6.12
20 7.02

And that's the flat medium XP, when a medium encounter can be anywhere between medium xp and hard xp. If you throw in hard encounters for variety, you'll end up getting less than 6 encounters per day, easily. Yes, there will be times when you can't get in a rest after two encounters. That'll hurt fighters and warlocks more than bladesingers, as the bladesinger can just "be a wizard", just like a moon druid can just "be a druid".

I feel like "2/short rest" is designer short hand for "basically every encounter".

 

[Tia Nadiezja]

Not to harp on this, but here's the break down of Daily XP Budget divided by Medium Encounter XP budget:

LvlMed/Day
16.00
26.00
38.00
46.80
57.00
66.67
76.67
86.67
96.82
107.50
116.56
125.75
136.14
145.77
156.43
166.25
176.41
186.43
196.12
207.02

And that's the flat medium XP, when a medium encounter can be anywhere between medium xp and hard xp. If you throw in hard encounters for variety, you'll end up getting less than 6 encounters per day, easily. Yes, there will be times when you can't get in a rest after two encounters. That'll hurt fighters and warlocks more than bladesingers, as the bladesinger can just "be a wizard", just like a moon druid can just "be a druid".

I feel like "2/short rest" is designer short hand for "basically every encounter".

2/short rest is the majority of encounters. But at least in my campaigns, based on the structure of the adventure, players have shifted between short rests every encounter to no short rests at all - they long rest when totally dry on daily abilities and aching for HP.

As long as short rests aren't constantly available/encouraged, every campaign, I expect the Bladesinger will occasionally forego their trance. Sometimes, they will even do so willingly.

 

[Mirtek]

So by being smart, I'm somehow negating the other abilities? Every ability isn't going to apply to every situation, my friends. It was shown in the Orc battle above that the other three abilities are a great boon. Againt a Githyanki Knight? Not so much. Now add that a more traditional Wizard build can't kite this Knight close to as efficiently, and the versatility of the Bladesinger really comes out.

But why would you want to melee build just to run away from melee to kite with ranged attacks. The other wizard builds do have their tricks so that they don't need to kite this knight, from the evoker would just stand where he is and cast away at the melee knight without fear of hurting himself to anyone else simply casting one expeditious retreat to keep away faster than the bladesinger's extra speed (who basically gave out a wizard specialization to save one first level slot)

Umm...double move 40' + 40' is longer than 30' + 30' Misty Step.

But not than 30' + 30' + 30' misty step at which point the bladesinger would have to have either used misty step himself or disengage next round, which would bring him in melee again after the knight's next turn. So the AC monster bladesinger spends three rounds and three spellslots and one activation of bladesong fleeing until he can finally start to kite. All the while wasting most of his bladesinger features

 

[Tony Vargas]

You also don't want to die so you adapt to the situation at hand. If that means kiting and flinging spells instead of engaging in melee then that's what you do.

So the Bladesinger's just a little more gasoline on the Wizard's Tier-1 versatility fire?

 

[Tony Vargas]

I guess. I don't really know much about the tiers.

In that context, just that the Wizard, like other new-Vanican casters, is already so very versatile just by virtue of being able to change out his spells daily and cast them more or less spontaneously, that the added versatility of being able to hit a 2/rest switch and be OK at melee is hardly noticeable.

 

[psychophipps]

But why would you want to melee build just to run away from melee to kite with ranged attacks. The other wizard builds do have their tricks so that they don't need to kite this knight, from the evoker would just stand where he is and cast away at the melee knight without fear of hurting himself to anyone else simply casting one expeditious retreat to keep away faster than the bladesinger's extra speed (who basically gave out a wizard specialization to save one first level slot)
But not than 30' + 30' + 30' misty step at which point the bladesinger would have to have either used misty step himself or disengage next round, which would bring him in melee again after the knight's next turn. So the AC monster bladesinger spends three rounds and three spellslots and one activation of bladesong fleeing until he can finally start to kite. All the while wasting most of his bladesinger features

Man, you have got to be a BEAR to buy presents for at Christmas, Mirtek.

So let me get this straight... The Knight has blown all three Misty Steps for the low cost of three rounds on Trance and the free extra movement. Maybe a Shield or two because this guy is a freaking Death Machine(tm) that cranks out two attacks at +9/5d6+6. Now I have 17 more rounds to run this guy around, peppering him with cantrips and some 1st level spells like Magic Missile unless he also blows his Jumps every turn, and you don't consider that winning?!?

This guy just treated that optimized Barbarian like a $2 whore and I soloed this chump with a 5th level Wizard for crying out loud!

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

This guy just treated that optimized Barbarian like a $2 whore and I soloed this chump with a 5th level Wizard for crying out loud!

You can do it with a first level wizard using Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat. (Longstrider only lets you attack every other round though.)

In reality though the Githyanki is unlikely to keep doggedly chasing you until you kill him. Expect him to break off, find cover, and adopt a defensive posture designed to deter you from pursuing him. He may Hide as well, hoping to get close enough to strike a decisive blow if you do pursue.

 

[psychophipps]

You can do it with a first level wizard using Longstrider or Expeditious Retreat. (Longstrider only lets you attack every other round though.)

In reality though the Githyanki is unlikely to keep doggedly chasing you until you kill him. Expect him to break off, find cover, and adopt a defensive posture designed to deter you from pursuing him. He may Hide as well, hoping to get close enough to strike a decisive blow if you do pursue.

Good point. Of course, a first-level very likely won't survive that first opportunity attack what with its redunkulous attacks and all. Minimum damage roll is going to take down 99%+ of Arcane, Divine, and Druidic casters.

To be frank, the Githyanki will eventually get frustrated and just 'port out before it (never know, it might be a girl after all) goes down. It probably has better things to do than end up dead.

Once it turns around, the Bladesinger basically has it by the short 'n curlies. Stay out of 60 ft and you can lob the world at it as it screams and runs (and burns). Running in Plate makes it really hard to hide where you're running to. Even if you completely porkchop the chase and it gets close (telekinesis, etc.), it's really just getting close enough for you go to work with a mix of the real artillery and some melee abilities on a now-weakened foe as long as you didn't pick stupid spells. Once you break contact, rinse and repeat.

Still a toss-up depending on terrain and other variables, of course, but it's pretty dang impressive nonetheless for a level 5 Wizard to hold their own against a big bad (at that level) like a Githyanki Knight solo.