D&D 5E Opinions on Bladesinger

[Coredump]

I don't have SCAG yet, and one of my players is planning on converting his level 4 PC into a Bladesinger.

Any opinions? How powerful is this? Anything I need to be aware of?

The cantrips seem powerful, but not all *that* powerful... but their 'power up' ability seems pretty boss. (The one they can use 2 times per short rest)

Just looking to tap into the collective wisdom so I am not surprised.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Because it depends on Intelligence, I think it is okay. Intelligence is a dump stat for almost everyone in the game, and so more Int options are good. It is powerful, for sure, but since it's built on making a wizard a front-line fighter (and different from an abjurer) I think it occupies an interesting space.

Is it open to abuse? Probably -- a character much more powerful than the default array might bend the rules. I've been wondering about how it would interact with an Int-based rogue (Bladesinger 2/Rogue -). That'll be effective, for sure, but by itself it seems fine to me.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I think it looks more powerful at first glance than it really is. Bladesingers can get a really high AC, but they have a wizard's low HP and once they run out of bladesongs, they lose most of their effectiveness. Their high AC doesn't help them at all when they're hit by things like dragon's breath, and their lack of Str saving throw prof. leaves them very vulnerable to forced movement effects and the like. They also depend a lot on spells like haste just to try and keep pace with fighter types, and since those types of spells require concentration, they can lose them very easily. MAD is also an issue, since they badly need Int, Dex and Con. The war caster feat is an absolute must, and taking it keeps them from increasing their ability scores until even higher levels.

I think a mountain dwarf abjurer with medium armor, a warhammer, and the green flame blade cantrip makes a better warrior than a bladesinger.

 

[Huntsman57]

As opposed to an EK or fighter/ mage, both of which use Int dump stat, I feel as though something like a 14th lv bladesinger/ 6th lv battlemaster is the best option...although just to clarify, am I reading it correctly that the fighter's extra attacks do stack with the extra attacks gained from other classes? Am I correct that a Bladesinger with at least 5 levels of fighter can add that extra attack to the extra attack it gets as a bladesinger?

 

[Kobold Stew]

...although just to clarify, am I reading it correctly that the fighter's extra attacks do stack with the extra attacks gained from other classes? Am I correct that a Bladesinger with at least 5 levels of fighter can add that extra attack to the extra attack it gets as a bladesinger?

No. p. 164 of the PHB; they don't stack.

 

[Mirtek]

As opposed to an EK or fighter/ mage, both of which use Int dump stat, I feel as though something like a 14th lv bladesinger/ 6th lv battlemaster is the best option...although just to clarify, am I reading it correctly that the fighter's extra attacks do stack with the extra attacks gained from other classes? Am I correct that a Bladesinger with at least 5 levels of fighter can add that extra attack to the extra attack it gets as a bladesinger?

No, the bladesinger's extra attack feature is written like any other and by it's working already rules out any stacking.

The Int-to-AC from bladesong however is not written like the other extra-ability-to-AC abilities and would stack with any of them. Personally I am on the side that believes this was a screw up rather than done intentionally

All in all I am disappointed by the bladesinger. 2 times per short rest just doesn't cut it. They should have made the style weaker (remove light armor and maybe the speed bonus) and made it permanently active

 

[Kobold Stew]

All in all I am disappointed by the bladesinger. 2 times per short rest just doesn't cut it. They should have made the style weaker (remove light armor and maybe the speed bonus) and made it permanently active

Limited resources is a regular feature of class builds, and this ends up being a kind of "graceful" rage.

The Int-to-AC from bladesong however is not written like the other extra-ability-to-AC abilities and would stack with any of them. Personally I am on the side that believes this was a screw up rather than done intentionally.

My guess is that since it's *not* always on (as with the draconic sorcerer, for example), I think it is what they intended.

 

[Mirtek]

Limited resources is a regular feature of class builds, and this ends up being a kind of "graceful" rage.

It's an issue of how the fundamental concept of the class is understood.

Is the bladesinger a mage who blasts from second rank primarily and occasionally goes into melee or someone who primarily goes into melee and blasts from the second rank occasionally?

In the past the bladesinger was the later and in 5e he became the former.

They could have givem him a permanent AC increase to be in melee all the time and then put his extra attack on a limited ressource (like with the warpriest)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I don't have SCAG yet, and one of my players is planning on converting his level 4 PC into a Bladesinger.

Any opinions? How powerful is this? Anything I need to be aware of?

The cantrips seem powerful, but not all *that* powerful... but their 'power up' ability seems pretty boss. (The one they can use 2 times per short rest)

Just looking to tap into the collective wisdom so I am not surprised.

Like most other wizards, a Bladesinger is 80% wizard, 20% specialist. As specialists go, it's not bad. Rotten saves but good AC and concentration.

Compared to a Paladin 6/Wild Sorcerer X, a Bladesinger will have similar AC, worse saves, no smiting, worse healing, a much better overall spell list, and more spell slots of higher levels. More emphasis on the "mage" part of the "fighter/mage" equation.

Compared to a Fighter 1/Necromancer X, he'll have slightly better AC eventually (no sooner than 12th level unless he rolled great stats), a worse use for his bonus action, worse Con saves but better Wisdom saves, more MAD, slightly better personal defense, no self-healing, and no army of undead minions. More emphasis on getting one's hands dirty, and more socially acceptable.

Compared to a Fighter 1/Abjuror X, he'll have a slightly better AC no sooner than 12th level, have less ability to keep Concentration, worse Counterspelling, more MAD, and will inflict more at-will damage.

Compared to a Fighter 1/Diviner X, he has better AC at 12th level, more MAD, less out of combat utility, and no Portent.

But every single one of those Fighter 1/Wizard X builds has more in common with the Bladesinger than they have differences. All of them will use Contingency to add virtual HP (False Life V, Dimension Door, Polymorph are all candidates); all of them can True Polymorph or Foresight themselves at high level; all of them can abuse Planar Binding and Simulacrum; all of them are quite tanky when they stack Blink/Blur/Mirror Image; all of them can Fireball or Cone of Cold at need; all of them, in short, have access to the excellent wizard spell list, and all of them will be powerful in play.

BTW, for the most part, melee cantrips like Thunderclap/Greenflame Blade/Sword Burst/Booming Blade (yech, horrible name--I'd rename it False Fetters) help Fighter 1/Wizard X more than they help Bladesingers. Gives them a pretty good at-will attack with no Extra Attack opportunity cost, since they don't have Extra Attack anyway.

 

[hejtmane]

No, the bladesinger's extra attack feature is written like any other and by it's working already rules out any stacking.

The Int-to-AC from bladesong however is not written like the other extra-ability-to-AC abilities and would stack with any of them. Personally I am on the side that believes this was a screw up rather than done intentionally

All in all I am disappointed by the bladesinger. 2 times per short rest just doesn't cut it. They should have made the style weaker (remove light armor and maybe the speed bonus) and made it permanently active

It stacks but who would take it a scorer and it's 13 AC make sense there; Barbarian terrible investment and a waste for many reasons. Monk but then now he has a 4th stat and still not one of it's core stats how many points can he really dump into int not very much . I mean everyone keeps saying that but I see very little value outside mixing a wizard/sorcerer multi class;

I could see a dex base fighter class leveraging it a bit on certain builds. We can compare those a little a fighter has some choices for ac lets look

plate + shield is 20 if they take defense skill 21 (most likely a champion build would have this)

If I go a dual wield light armor build armor 12 + dex +5 duel wield feat +1 18 Now this toon can dump in int because they have an open stat so lets say they do this and leverage int and manage to max it +5 ac 23 with out feat 22 if he gives up damage for defense 24 but that be stupid he have to be champion to really leverage that but Battle master is the smarter option for many reasons. Now the 23 ac battle master can get ridiculous be adding evasive footwork and a 1d8 to the ac. Then again a duelist with plate and shield can add the same 1d8 (1d12 by 18th level)and put out more damage then the dual wielder oh and he would have a 4th attack that the dual wielder lost by giving up at least 2 levels of fighter and his extra attack is a bonus action

I can multiclass two levels of fighter and make a battle wizard like this no weapon and be a spell caster only plate+shield + defense 21 as well

A barbarian can get to 22ac at 20th level

Outside one special case of a dex based dual wield fighter do i see any oh my goodness I can really leverage the ac stacking