D&D (2024) Doesn't Eldritch Knight's new War Magic seem to grant overpowered at-will damage?

[Kurotowa]

Here's why I kind of hope the weapon cantrips make it into the Revised PHB in some form. By itself, replacing a weapon attack with a cantrip ain't great. You're trading Weapon Die + Ability Mod + Weapon Mod to do what's effectively Weapon Die x2 with no modifiers and, unless you're investing heavily in Int, a lower attack bonus. It's not really a significant damage gain until you're high enough level for the cantrip to get a third damage die, and even then it might not be that much of one if you have a really good magic weapon.

I don't know that Eldritch Knight is that good even with the changes unless they have use of BB and GFB.

 

[mellored]

So I messed that up a few ways.
At 15,

EK have a 50% chance to add 2d8. So 4.5, plus more if they move.

Battlemaster is 4.5 plus a maneuver.

Champion is (10% of 2d6 * 2) +, (0.2275 * 7) = 2.9925.
5.985 with flame tongue.

 

[mellored]

By itself, replacing a weapon attack with a cantrip ain't great. You're trading Weapon Die + Ability Mod + Weapon Mod to do what's effectively Weapon Die x2 with no modifiers

+ whatever other effects the cantrip has.

You could, for instance, use shocking grasp and then be able to move away without provoking.
Or use chill touch on a fire elemental.

and, unless you're investing heavily in Int, a lower attack bonus. It's not really a significant damage gain until you're high enough level for the cantrip to get a third damage die, and even then it might not be that much of one if you have a really good magic weapon.

No one else has significant gains at low levels. And you probably won't have weapon mods or max Dex.

At level 5.

EK trades 1d8+4 for 2d10. Adding 1.5.

Battlemaster gets 4d8 per short rest. Assuming 8 rounds, that's 2.25

Champion gets +0.7
Champion with Shillelagh adds 1.

EK isn't doing bad here.

I don't know that Eldritch Knight is that good even with the changes unless they have use of BB and GFB.

True Strike also adds damage now, though it uses your casting modifier.

 

[Rystefn]

I 100% agree that martials should get scaling at-will cantrip-like attacks. This is a great idea that should go right next to other popular adjustments to the game such as making short rests actually short, scaling your bad saves so you don't just fail automatically in the upper tiers, and having monsters with higher CR that go down with a single hit. Maybe even the thing about making multiclassing into a feat instead of literally trading in levels or whatever. So... yeah, they should put a decent chunk of 4e back into it, basically lol

Also, yeah, the weapon cantrips should be PHB spells. That's exactly the kind of stuff any rando person would imagine an EK would do if you told them D&D had a magical fighter subclass. It's kind of a key part of the archetype it's there to emulate.

 

[Kurotowa]

No one else has significant gains at low levels. And you probably won't have weapon mods or max Dex.

At level 5.

EK trades 1d8+4 for 2d10. Adding 1.5.

Right, but EK doesn't get War Magic until 7th level. And you're assuming sword and board with War Caster, the weapon die is a bit bigger if we look at a 2H weapon. So let's roll it ahead to 8th level. You've got +5 Str and a +1 Greatsword, totally reasonable for 8th level. That's 2d6+6 vs 2d10 from Chill Touch. The cantrip is, on average, -2 damage from just making a weapon attack. And yes, the cantrip has an additional effect. So does the Greatsword, thanks to Weapon Mastery.

That's why I saying that without the weapon cantrips, EK doesn't actually gain anything from mixing in cantrips until 11th level. Which is pretty dang late in most campaigns to start doing their signature trick.

 

[mellored]

Right, but EK doesn't get War Magic until 7th level.

Fair.

And you're assuming sword and board with War Caster, the weapon die is a bit bigger if we look at a 2H weapon. So let's roll it ahead to 8th level. You've got +5 Str and a +1 Greatsword, totally reasonable for 8th level. That's 2d6+6 vs 2d10 from Chill Touch.

I was assuming a longbow and firebolt.

You're choosing the worst case scenario for it. That's like assuming a whip on a champion.

If your in melee, use True Strike. Or at very least Poison Spray.

So does the Greatsword, thanks to Weapon Mastery.

Yes, but now you have access to a lot more abilities.

You can attack one person and cast friends to keep one guy off you while you focus on another (if you can convince your DM that your only "fighting" one target at a time).

Or turn 1 you attack and cast Create Bonfire, action surge, push them out and Lightning Lure them back in. Possibly the Sentinel feat and allies doing the same.

Or turn 1 you use mind sliver (+ silvery barbs) to setup for the wizards hold person.
turn 2 you action surge and critically hit them to death.

Or dig a hole with Mold Earth and push them into it.... might not be the best example to do in combat.

That's why I saying that without the weapon cantrips, EK doesn't actually gain anything from mixing in cantrips until 11th level.

Not sure why you would dismiss weapon cantrips.

Which is pretty dang late in most campaigns to start doing their signature trick.

Casting Shield several times a day is not exactly a bad signature trick for a fighter.

Or just use True Strike. Easy 1d6 damage bump, no matter what weapon your wielding.

 

[ECMO3]

Are you looking at the right version? The opening post and thread tag show we're talking about the Revised PHB 2024, not the PHB 2014. So the topic at hand is the UA7 Eldritch Knight, which has a different version of War Magic that lets them substitute one of their attacks from the Attack action with a cantrip.

Now, I haven't run the numbers myself, not do I particularly want to invest the time in doing so for pre-balance playtest material using spells from a pre-Revision supplement. On the whole, your point about other subclasses getting their own damage increases holds up. And given that the 2014 Eldritch Knight is dismissed by nearly everyone as terribly weak, I don't see the improvement being a bad thing.

No I was not. That is a big difference and it will do significantly more damage. Thanks for the correction.