D&D 5E Opinions on Bladesinger

[IlluminatedSeraph]

While I understand the attraction of a high Counterspell bonus, I don't think it's likely to work out that way in practice. The 9th level spell you're likely to be most afraid of in a typical party is Meteor Swarm: 140 damage on everybody, save for half. Meteor Swarm has a one-mile (5280') range. Counterspell has a 60' range. Odds are that if somebody is Meteor Swarming you, they're way out of Counterspell range.

The spell my party is most afraid of is Power Word Kill, because it snuffs anyone without d10 hit dice AND at least a +4 con save without any save or protection at all, and Counterspell on it will absolutely save someone's neck. The spell they're second most afraid of is a well placed Prismatic Wall, which Counterspell will also knock down. So I think either you need to revisit your thinking there or we have very, very different parties.

Edit: I'm aware that PWK only affects targets at 100 hp and under, but enemies with 9th level magic start being appropriate in the early teens and a lot of (non-fighter, non-barbarian) characters don't clear 100 hp until they're getting up into the last few levels.

 

[spectacle]

Kiting isn't a viable tactic in the long term. Unless you're playing adventuer's league or with a DM who strictly follows a published module, if you overdo kiting you're likely to face plenty of encounters with worg riding, longbow wielding hobgoblins. Good luck kiting them with your fire bolt and 40ft speed.

 

[psychophipps]

Kiting isn't a viable tactic in the long term. Unless you're playing adventuer's league or with a DM who strictly follows a published module, if you overdo kiting you're likely to face plenty of encounters with worg riding, longbow wielding hobgoblins. Good luck kiting them with your fire bolt and 40ft speed.

Good point. We're also talking about a very unique one-on-one situation. The far more typical situation will involve a multi-member party with mixed abilities and skillsets facing multiple opponents.
That said, I think I've pretty well demonstrated that, barring play style preferences, the Bladesinger definitely adds more to the party than the dismissive "Mage with a sword...Meh!" responses forwarded by many of the more traditional Wizard players.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

The spell my party is most afraid of is Power Word Kill, because it snuffs anyone without d10 hit dice AND at least a +4 con save without any save or protection at all, and Counterspell on it will absolutely save someone's neck. The spell they're second most afraid of is a well placed Prismatic Wall, which Counterspell will also knock down. So I think either you need to revisit your thinking there or we have very, very different parties.

Different parties I guess. PWK doesn't even work on high-level PCs* unless they are wounded (so can't be used from ambush), and it has a short 60' range, and even if it does work a single (possibly-quickened) Revivify reverses it. And it's hard-countered by Death Ward, which should be SOP for high-level parties in risky situations.

Prismatic Wall: just wait it out, behind your own little Wall of Force if necessary. It no longer lasts from three hours like in AD&D, it's only ten minutes.

I fully appreciate the value of Counterspell, especially on Lore Bards (Peerless Skill + Jack of All Trades = 81% success rate on 9th level spells) and to a lesser extent Abjurors (Improved Abjuration = 65% success rate on 9th level spells) as opposed to a normal wizard (35% success rate on 9th level spells). But I see it as more of a defense-in-depth thing Just In Case someone tries to mess you up with the wrong spell at the wrong time, rather than a hard counter that you'd want to rely on intentionally, because it does have pretty serious limitations. Remember that a 3rd level Counterspell is still more vulnerable to Counterspelling than a 9th level Counterspell, so if you really, really couldn't afford a PWK right now you might be better off just burning your own 9th level slot instead of a 3rd level slot. There's a time to economize and a time to spend. Also, Greater Invisibility makes you immune to Counterspelling unless your enemy has See Invisible up. Even just a plain good Stealth roll can result in a non-Counterspellable spell.

TL;DR being able to Counterspell 9th level spells with 3rd level slots is fun, but a genuine archmage has plenty of ways to bypass Counterspell.

* At 11th level, the Necrolock in my test party has 81 HP + 16 temp HP. The Paladorc has 4th level spell slots (P7S4) so can cast Aid IV (no concentration, 8 hours), which would give the Necrolock 96 HP. That means the Necrolock, at level 11, is only 4 HP away from being immune to surprise PWK if Aid IV becomes SOP. (Right now it's not SOP but if my players were as scared of PWK as yours are you can bet it would become SOP pretty quick.) He has an unusually-high Con, but even with an low wizard Con (12 is low for a wizard) he'd still reach 100 HP by 15th level. (79 HP + Aid VI = 104 HP.)

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Kiting isn't a viable tactic in the long term. Unless you're playing adventuer's league or with a DM who strictly follows a published module, if you overdo kiting you're likely to face plenty of encounters with worg riding, longbow wielding hobgoblins. Good luck kiting them with your fire bolt and 40ft speed.

At the risk of controversy, I feel constrained to point out that you can in fact kite 50' movement wargs using 40' movement and Expeditious Retreat. Dash + bonus Dash gives you 120' movement per turn, and Fire Bolt + bonus Dash gives you 80' movement, so you wind up being able to Fire Bolt every other turn.

The longbows are more serious as a problem, and at that point the game becomes a game of maneuver, looking for partial cover, stealth, and counter-stealth--like XCOM: UFO Defense. I highly recommend that style of game. It's way more fun than just rolling attack and damage twenty times in a succession of 10' x 10' rooms.

 

[Blue]

I'm not sure how everyone else plays their game, but we strongly tend to get a short rest at least every other serious combat or so. With this in mind, the "*GASP!* Only two uses of the Trance!?!" argument is largely moot at my personal gaming table.

You can certainly do that but then you are vastly altering the intended balance between short rest and long rest classes.

Except that generally in line with what the DMG says. Pg 102 under "The Adventuring Day" says that PCs can expect to have 6-8 medium to hard ("serious") encounters per day. The next section on the same page is Short Rests suggests two per day, usually about 1/3 and 2/3 of the way through the day.

So a six encounter day could be:

Long Rest ends
Encounter
Encounter
Short Rest
Encounter
Encounter
Short Rest
Encounter
Encounter
Long Rest starts

That's right by the DMG, and gets a short rest every other serious encounter like originally put forth. Now you can throw in 1-2 more encounters under DMG, but it looks like it's rare to need to forgo the bladesong by the DMG timing. Worst case you have it for 75% of your encounters.

 

[psychophipps]

At the risk of controversy, I feel constrained to point out that you can in fact kite 50' movement wargs using 40' movement and Expeditious Retreat. Dash + bonus Dash gives you 120' movement per turn, and Fire Bolt + bonus Dash gives you 80' movement, so you wind up being able to Fire Bolt every other turn.

The longbows are more serious as a problem, and at that point the game becomes a game of maneuver, looking for partial cover, stealth, and counter-stealth--like XCOM: UFO Defense. I highly recommend that style of game. It's way more fun than just rolling attack and damage twenty times in a succession of 10' x 10' rooms.

I agree, Hemlock. My current group thinks "strategy and tactics" is waiting until round 2 before a headlong charge. Great guys, but they've been playing far too long to give me a blank stare when I mentioned the "Conga Line of Death".

 

[Blue]

Bladesong fully recharges after a *Short* Rest and lasts up to a minute without requiring Concentration. I am curious how many DMs are running more than 2 combats between Short Rests to feel that the 2 uses of Bladesong is a significant limitation? Also, how many DMs are regularly running combats that last more than one in-game minute (10 rounds)?

It sounds like you are asking when bladesong won't come up. Well, it's a bonus action to activate so during surprise rounds and anyone acting before you first round it's not up.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

That's right by the DMG, and gets a short rest every other serious encounter like originally put forth. Now you can throw in 1-2 more encounters under DMG, but it looks like it's rare to need to forgo the bladesong by the DMG timing. Worst case you have it for 75% of your encounters.

The "6-8 encounters" thing appears to be a relic of the old 0.1 Basic Rules. Back then, before the DMG came out, encounter thresholds were a ceiling on difficulty, not a floor.

For example, for a 7th level party of four, two werewolves (4200 XP) are right between the Medium threshold (3000) and the Hard threshold (4400). That means it's a Medium encounter. In 0.1, it was over the Medium ceiling (3000) but not over the Hard ceiling (4400) so it would be a Hard encounter. The numbers have not changed but the labels have.

Since the daily adventure day XP budget has not changed, you can still fit in the same 6-8 encounters that the original guidelines projected per day, but now they are Easy instead of Medium. Since most DMs don't use Easy encounters, following the XP budget guidelines and using Medium encounters should now result in 4-6 encounters per day instead of 6-8. The "6-8" text probably should have been updated, but wasn't.

 

[Blue]

The "6-8 encounters" thing appears to be a relic of the old 0.1 Basic Rules. Back then, before the DMG came out, encounter thresholds were a ceiling on difficulty, not a floor.

For example, for a 7th level party of four, two werewolves (4200 XP) are right between the Medium threshold (3000) and the Hard threshold (4400). That means it's a Medium encounter. In 0.1, it was over the Medium ceiling (3000) but not over the Hard ceiling (4400) so it would be a Hard encounter. The numbers have not changed but the labels have.

Since the daily adventure day XP budget has not changed, you can still fit in the same 6-8 encounters that the original guidelines projected per day, but now they are Easy instead of Medium. Since most DMs don't use Easy encounters, following the XP budget guidelines and using Medium encounters should now result in 4-6 encounters per day instead of 6-8. The "6-8" text probably should have been updated, but wasn't.

It looks like you've giving this more study then I have. Deferring to your numbers then no more than two encounters between short rests makes it even more likely bladesong can be up for an encounter.

BTW, I tried to send you a PM but your box was full. So I'll say it here: Cool sig.