Opinions on the Mob subtype?

[LordVyreth]

The Mob subtype, for those who don't know, was first published in Dungeon #113, and basically worked as a variant of the Swarm subtype for larger creatures, albeit smaller numbers of them. Basically its default size is a twenty by twenty square of forty Small or Medium-sized creatures. I like the overall concept, but have some problems with the concept, both logically and gameplay-wise. Logically, it doesn't seem to make sense that such a small group of creatures would gain so much additional power in terms of hit points and attack strength. One good fireball should theoretically wipe them out, not just do 50% more damage to their collective hp. Gameplay-wise, it seems to make relatively small groups of creatures too strong. I'm almost reminded of the infamous overbearing "mobs" of ten beggars from the old Knights of the Dinner Table comics. Has anyone ever used this subtype in play? Do you think it would work better if the default was hundreds or even thousands of individuals, taking up a much larger space? And if you don't like the template, how have you handled mobs in your game?

 

[Corlon]

here's a thread on a created way of doing mobs: http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=99927

The way I chose to deal with mobs is:
Swarmed: If a character has 80% of his surrounding squares covered, he is "swarmed." This means that this character is flat footed, AND is still effected by flanking rules. If a rogue with the "can't be flanked" uncanny dodge ability would normally be effected by this, he is counted as being flanked by all attacking him instead.

This doesn't really seem THAT great at first glance, but I sprung this rule into action when my group (8th level party, one cleric, one diviner/alienist, and one fighter/shiba protector (westernized for campaign purposes)) flaunted into a group of about, oh let's say 16 orcs (yes, the 1/2 CR orcs from the 3.0 monster manual).

The fighter/shiba protector (whom we will call Wade from this point out) got the brunt of the attack (8 orcs surrounding him), and the cleric (whom we will call Curran from here on out) got about 4 orcs on him, 4 still needed to get within range to attack. The wizard lightning blasted (lightning fireball) the 4 orcs not in combat. Curran took down maybe an orc on the first turn. Wade was unlucky enough to go after these orcs. Let me tell you, 8 attacks at +5 against a flat footed man are going to hit a good amount of the time and at 1d12+3 damage, this is no small amount. I believe they laid him low the second round and carried him off. The wizard couldn't mass spell them because he'd kill Wade so he had to wittle them away with magic missles and such.

All the orcs were eventually killed, but the point is that these orcs did a lot of damage just by swarming him per the "normal rules."

Also piling 8 guys (or however many can grapple one person) on a single guy with others surrounding giving "aiding" actions can really take even the most powerful characters down. If you don't want to role THAT MANY (oh no, 16 simple calculations ) dice then just divide and role a few attacks in one.

 

[Shogun Jakalo]

My problem with the "Mob" concept is that swarms where initially designed to reflect a behavior in the animal world that occurs only in the most primative creatures. In things such as, lets say, dogs, the Mob idea doesn't acount for the instinctual use of stratagy, flanking, and an individual creatures skills and reaction. that is to say, if a dog gets injured, he/she may back off depending on a skill check, regaurdless of the behavior of other dogs. Vermin, whitch the "swarm" Idea was intended to deal with, however, lack the complex nervous system to facilitate things like, "maybe this isn't a good idea," and react to follow the behavior of the vermin that survive most effectively

 

[hong]

My problem with the "Mob" concept is that swarms where initially designed to reflect a behavior in the animal world that occurs only in the most primative creatures. In things such as, lets say, dogs, the Mob idea doesn't acount for the instinctual use of stratagy, flanking, and an individual creatures skills and reaction.

That's very nice, but a DM who can keep track of all these things when dealing with 40-odd monsters on the battlemat, is a better DM than most out there. It's a convenience tool for people who want to have huge battles without gameplay bogging down, details getting lost, and so on.

 

[Geoff Watson]

I don't like the Mob template. Too big a change from the original creature. Instead of a fear spell (or other area spell) causing nearly all of them to run away, they more or less ignore it. Also, going from 'need a 20' to 'automatic hit for lots of damage' is another huge change.

Geoff.

 

[Gort]

I like mobs, but I've not really had a chance to use them yet. I used a mob of town guard, pretty similar to the bandit mob, to help out my players against a Retriever. Unfortunately it had DR 10/-, so their arrow storm did next to no damage, but the idea was there.

I think they're great for battles. In a skirmish you might have three mobs of orcs and a leader who's high enough level to be a challenge himself. Alternatively you can dig out 91 models and make all their attack rolls, boring everyone to death. It also gets rid of the "oh, we hit tenth level, we can fight an army of 10,000 men on our own" thing. Jumping in and killing a horde of low-level baddies has its place, but when you're approaching the BBEGs citadel, with tens of thousands of soldiers in it, it's good to have some mechanic to make the characters choose discretion for a change.

Isn't being able to defeat a trained unit of thirty well-armed and equipped men ON YOUR OWN heroic enough for you?

edit: Also, if you arm half your men with polearms and the others with swords, up to 24 of them can threaten someone, as many as you like of them taking "aid another" actions until the AC becomes hittable. I don't think the attack and damage is out of whack to be honest.

Plus you can visualise the fireball effect as some of the men being toasted but providing cover to others, etc etc.

 

[LordVyreth]

Sure I can see how the whole "bodies as cover" concept can work, but not for numbers as limited as just forty individuals, and the mob sub-type doesn't even really represent that scenario anyway,because it allows for the tracking of individual casualties in the mob by making them equal negative levels. According to the template, individual-targetting effects that disable, like bardic fascinate spells, hold person, and the like will give the mob negative levels for every member of the mob so affected. However, damage-dealing effects appear to work as normal, suggesting that fireballs and the like completely distribute their damage between every person in the mob, thus killing none of them! It gets even weirder for individual effects. According to the subtype, spells and effects that target individual creatures will also cause negative levels, but it also says that damage taken by the mob doesn't degrade its ability to attack or resist attack, which leads me to wonder what, exactly happens when a characters simply attacks the mob with a sword or similar weapon? Does it down a member of the mob if the damage is sufficient, thus giving it a negative level? Or does it just count as mob damage, leading again to the strange image of a barbarian's greatsword somehow nicking many, or even dozens of members of the mob per strike without actually killing anyone.

The other major issue I have is the balance problem. The increased attack value I can understand, mainly for the reasons Gort mentioned, but by turning 40 1 HD creatures into 1 40 HD one, it also gives the thing vastly higher saves, which not only makes it nigh-impossible to stop it using most nonlethal methods, but also leads to the oddly paradoxical conclusion that a mob of barely-sane individuals fighting in a jumbled, ineffeficient system are somehow better at Reflex Saves and often better at resisting magical compulsion than most highly-trained 20th level characters with superhuman wisdom and magical aid.

And then there's the CRs given in the article in question. According to the adventure, a 40 HD creatures with 260 hit points and an attack bonus of +30 is a CR 9. Even with (theoretically) easy ways to give it negative levels, this seems obscenely strong for this CR. I like the concept of the mob, but I can't see how to make a balanced version of it that also doesn't break suspension of disbelief.

 

[LordVyreth]

Hmm, does anyone else have any suggestions? And of those who are not satisfied with the current way the sub type is handled, how would you change it to make it acceptable?

 

[the Jester]

Interesting, I don't have that Dungeon and I keep seeing things that make me wish I did.

I am starting to consider the possibilities of using a mob-like template for mass battles (army or legion template, perhaps?)...

 

[Victim]

Hmm, does anyone else have any suggestions? And of those who are not satisfied with the current way the sub type is handled, how would you change it to make it acceptable?

I'd just use normal creatures, but make their attacks and saves non random. Natural 20 required to hit -> 1 in 20 guys hitting. The amount of damage dealt by characters relative to the orginal creatures' HP should make that kind of bookkeeping a non issue. Alteratively, use some kind of table reference to handle group attacks, like Cry Havoc.

It's not just about heroes versus mobs of guys, it's also about monsters versus mobs of guys. Ordinarily, a large group of soldiers poses no threat to serious monsters. The guards have serious trouble getting through the AC and DR, and their low HD and saves means that they are easily affected by special abilities, especially Frightful Presence and area damage. With mobs, the guys have good enough attacks and damage to injure the monsters, even with DR (especially if they have Power Attack), are immune to Frightful Presence and similar effects, and have enough HP and saves to weather supernatural attacks. When the dragon attacks, a couple hundred archers will kill it dead, rather than getting routed then eaten. The world doesn't really need heroes, just piles of crap guys so they can combine their powers.