Opinions on True20

[jaerdaph]

How? I've read the true 20 quick play rules and con bonus is not calculated into the toughness save.

From what I've heard/seen, the quick play rules have a serious case of The Suck. They have a lot of errata and ommissions that are/were addressed in the core rules, the pocket player's guide, and the official errata. The quick play rules apparently don't make a good first impression.

Here's the formula from the Pocket Player's Guide:

Toughness Saving Throw = d20 + Constitution + Feats + Armor - Toughness save penalties from injury

VS.

DC 15 + Attack Damage Bonus

 

[Nadaka]

While it's true that IRL Speed Strength is defined as work divided by time, where work is defined as force x distance, this has no bearing on accuracy, which is the sole determining factor in whether or not a strike actually connects with a target. You can be crazy strong all day long and lack the coordination to hit anything.

The truth of this can be demonstrated by the fact that not everybody hits their intended target every time that they fire a pistol or rifle -- and the momentum of a bullet is thousands of times that produced by exerting physical strength on an object. Sure, it's really hard to dodge a bullet -- but you don't need to if the shooter lacks the coordination necessary to accurately sight the firearm.

More importantly, however, STR does not have anything to do with speed in the D&D RAW -- this is the sole domain of DEX. So, while STR may have some bearing on the speed with which a blow is dealt in real life, it has absolutely no bearing on that same element in D&D because D&D doesn't mirror real world physics mechanically.

[Edit: I should clarify -- the argument "It makes sense for STR to affect a to-hit roll in D&D because 'hit' means something different in D&D than it does IRL" is a good and valid argument (but, even then, only applicable to D&D as the word "hit" means something different there than it does in True 20). This wasn't the argument that was made, however. The argument made was that being strong IRL bestows coordination -- the reality is that these two things have ZERO bearing on one another IRL.]

Firearms are not melee weapons.
People miss with them because they:
A: are not pointing at the target.
B: the 1/10 of a second it takes the shooter to respond to the movement of a target is enough for the target to move out of the shooters line of fire.

You are defining dexterity in D&D incorrectly. In D&D dexterity represents response time, not actual speed. It has no effect at all on how fast you can move. Only how fast you can begin responding to a stimulus.

In reality accuracy is important in hitting a target in melee. However strength is more important to accuracy than is dexterity with most melee weapons.

Why? without strength the weapon will move in a slow arc that the target can simply step out of the way, even if it is perfectly aimed.

Meanwhile, if the path of a 1 meter blade is off 15% away from intersecting the victims heart on all 3 dimensions, it will still impact the victim somewhere between the neck and stomach.

 

[jaerdaph]

I have had a lot of trouble expressing this in the past, which resulted in several near flamewars here. I apologize for those. It took me a while to put my finger on the specific issue (as stated here) which, in retrospect, really has nothing to do with complexity as I previously asserted.

Well, the designers of True20 have had a lot of trouble expressing in writing how the damage and recovery system works, so I'd say you're excused.

 

[jezter6]

Here comes the 2e Weapon Speed table to solve this argument for all time...

 

[bento]

Wait. . . wait. . . am I actually defending True20 against baseless criticism? Somebody grab Bento quick!

Here I am! So far I've managed to stay away from posting to this thread for fear of getting a reputation like some rabid system supporters. But when you say Beetlejuice three times, you know what to expect...

Over the past year or two in talking about True20 we've said what we've said for the reasons they needed to be said and there's little else to be said. You have those that like it, those that don't, and those that are on the fence.

My hope is in April those who are on the fence, and maybe a disliker or two, will take a look at the revised rules and like what they see.

 

[jaerdaph]

There is a feat in standard d20 that lets you substitute DEX for STR. I'm not sure about the reverse in True 20 (I didn't fool around with it long enough to find out).

The Brute Force feat (General) in the True20 Companion allows you to use Str instead of Dex for melee attacks with any weapon the Narrator allows.

Examples of other cool feats from the Companion include Insightful Strike (Warrior/Expert) or Intuitive Strike (Warrior/Expert) which allow you to add Int or Wis to damage instead of Str.

The thing to remember is you get a lot of feats in True20 compared to other d20 games. And there are a lot of variations and combinations possible, which makes True20 a very good system to customize the genre and style of campaign you want to play.

I just want to add to anyone reading and thinking about True20, don't go by the sucky quick start rules alone (or the opinions of those basing their opinions of True20 on only those rules).

And if Green Ronin is reading, you might want to consider updating the quick start rules.

 

[jdrakeh]

Firearms are not melee weapons.
People miss with them because they:
A: are not pointing at the target.

People miss when they swing a bat at an object because it isn't aligned with the object which they intend to hit. The physics are the same and have nothing to do with momentum. Think in terms of inanimate objects if it helps. Example:

A golf ball doesn't dodge anything. If you can't hit it, it's because you lack coordination, not because the ball is physically strong and matching or besting the momentum with which you swing the club. Momentum detemines only how far you can propel the ball if you connect, and how quickly you may connect -- it does not determine if you connect.

This is an example borne out in televised golf events on a daily basis. The phrase "A hard swing and a miss!" is commonplace for a reason. If anything, increased momentum has been shown to decrease accuracy. Similarly, the term "wild swing" with regard to boxing and street fighting comes about as a result of this principle in action.

B: the 1/10 of a second it takes the shooter to respond to the movement of a target is enough for the target to move out of the shooters line of fire.

And men armed with bats (or swords) swing far faster than bullets fly? I'm sorry but that is very, very, very incorrect.

In D&D dexterity represents response time, not actual speed.

It represents response time and raw manual dexterity. . . also known as hand to eye coordination. This is evidenced (among other things) by trap removal rules, which are a pass/fail event that have nothing to do with reaction speed but default to DEX in the game mechanics.

It has no effect at all on how fast you can move. Only how fast you can begin responding to a stimulus.

You're right -- it doesn't meaure momentum, but since momentum has no bearing on accuracy in basic physics, it doesn't matter. It doesn't need to represent momentum.

However strength is more important to accuracy than is dexterity with most melee weapons.

Why? Without strength the weapon will move in a slow arc that the target can simply step out of the way, even if it is perfectly aimed.

Again, this has nothing to do with accuracy. Just because something has tremendous momentum does not mean that it is more likely to impact a given target. There is absolutely no basis for this argument in terms of physics.

All momentum does is determine the amount of distance that an object can travel in X amount of time and the amount of transferable force conveyed by a given object in motion. It does not determine the momentum with which a target itself can move, nor the reaction speed of that target, nor an attacker's hand to eye coordination. While STR determines momentum, it does not determine accuracy. Ever.

And before somebody brings up the argument about STR determining the number of blows that an individual can throw in X amount of time, it doesn't do that, either. Strength has nothing to do with physical endurance or reaction time.

 

[jdrakeh]

The Brute Force feat (General) in the True20 Companion allows you to use Str instead of Dex for melee attacks with any weapon the Narrator allows.

Well, there you go -- it's a total non-issue

 

[Greg K]

My hope is in April those who are on the fence, and maybe a disliker or two, will take a look at the revised rules and like what they see.

I'm not on the fence, but I am waiting until April since I only have the core rules pdf.

 

[jdrakeh]

My hope is in April those who are on the fence, and maybe a disliker or two, will take a look at the revised rules and like what they see.

I might, at that.