Optimization and optimizers...

[overgeeked]

Serious question: Have you ever seen a player who was the lone non-optimizer at the table, and how did they react to being asked to optimize more?

Yes, once. I walked away because I'm not interested in that style of play. This was me optimizing at +1 or maybe a +2 while the rest of the table was solidly around +4.

Another: How far does a player have to go in the way of engaging with the mechanics before you define them as an "optimizer?" Is it in starting build? Advancement? (Obviously different games will have different answers, there.) Does it come at the point of knowing the game's rules well enough that the player can easily bend the rules to their will? Is it always disruptive, every single time?

It shows up when it becomes disruptive. That's when someone's an optimizer. If you're optimizing far more than the group, you're being disruptive and therefore being an optimizer. If you're optimizing at the +4 or +5 range and that's not the focus of the game, you're being disruptive and therefore being an optimizer. Yes, it's always disruptive.

They never make someone optimized to make the whole party better? (Or is that just as much a problem?"

You mean like Treant Monk's god-wizard? Or similar with buffs, etc? Never seen it in play.

 

[overgeeked]

I was presuming this was someone competent--knowing how to play their character, maybe knowing the rules more broadly, just choosing not to optimize as hard as the other people at the table. It does say something about the attitude of a lot of self-professed optimizers, I guess, that you jumped to the conclusion they were less competent.

Yeah, it's fairly ubiquitous stance in conversations about this topic. It goes hand-in-hand with the other fallacy that because RPGs are a game you're meant to play to win. As if you can win an RPG. Which you can't. But yeah, it's part of the whole attitude around optimization and optimizers that's so utterly off-putting.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yes, once. I walked away because I'm not interested in that style of play. This was me optimizing at +1 or maybe a +2 while the rest of the table was solidly around +4.

Good on you to know what didn't interest you.

It shows up when it becomes disruptive. That's when someone's an optimizer. If you're optimizing far more than the group, you're being disruptive and therefore being an optimizer.

Ahh. This is open acknowledgement of the irregular verb. You only use optimizer, something you'll note people are happy to call themselves, as a term of abuse.

And you've just contradicted yourself. You did not, by your definition, walk away from a table of optimisers. They were not being disruptive - they were all playing the game without being disruptive.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Yeah, it's fairly ubiquitous stance in conversations about this topic. It goes hand-in-hand with the other fallacy that because RPGs are a game you're meant to play to win. As if you can win an RPG. Which you can't.

You can't win an RPG. But you can lose.

As I have said before if you are taking seriously being in a life or death situation with a non-suicidal character then you will try to optimise your in character decisions like equipment and spells.

But yeah, it's part of the whole attitude around optimization and optimizers that's so utterly off-putting.

Yeah. The anti-optimisers using a term people use for themselves as a term of abuse is off-putting. As is the anti-optimisers not respecting people actually roleplaying and thinking that that somehow makes them superior.

If you don't want a toxic conversation then don't use the way people describe themselves as a term of abuse. There's no real way back into a polite conversation when you are being that toxic.

 

[bloodtide]

For everyone talking about players who are optimizers who are also not upholding the community/social contract aspects. I challenge you to show that is inherent in optimization, not just correlated with it, or perhaps not even correlated but just more noticeable. (Much like how there are a lot more people admitting they are left handed now that it's not stigmatized -- just a matter of factual tracking as opposed to biased noticing when someone was "sinister".)

Sure there are very few optimizers that do it for good complex reasons.

The bulk are jerks, or worse. Optimization is fuel for egos. The player is just thinking about themselves and specificity is not thinking about others.

Because unless those anti-community traits must come with optimizing (hint: they don't), then they can't be considered part of optimizing itself.

They must.

Other then the few good ones, all optimizers are doing it to disrupt or even wreck a game. It seems obvious, as the whole reason optimizers even have a bad name is that they are always jerks at the table. They bully players, belittle players, hog the spotlight and worse.

Nearly all optimizers go out of their way to be jerks. And the great example here is the 'average' optimizer might say "gosh my character is so much better then all the other PCs, I kind of feel bad for being so awesome, what can I do?". And when told, "um, just don't optimize", they react with vile anger and say they "must optimize" and "must make the most powerful character" because their twisted jerk ego says so.....

So a wizard putting their highest ability score into INT, and later picking up feats that help their spellcasting or INT, are loopholes or exploits? Because those are definitely making optimal choices, which is what an optimizer does.

Ask the player if they would ever consider ever playing a wizard character with a low intelligence and low spellcasting ability......when they shout "NO", you know they are an optimizing problem player.

Serious question: Have you ever seen a player who was the lone non-optimizer at the table, and how did they react to being asked to optimize more?

They resit the idea and don't want to do it. They also look for another game.

Another: How far does a player have to go in the way of engaging with the mechanics before you define them as an "optimizer?" Is it in starting build? Advancement? (Obviously different games will have different answers, there.) Does it come at the point of knowing the game's rules well enough that the player can easily bend the rules to their will? Is it always disruptive, every single time? They never make someone optimized to make the whole party better? (Or is that just as much a problem?"

Not far, as it does not take much to disrupt most games.

Though this is a bigger game and DM problem. I lot of DMs are Bubby DMS, or as they would say "fans of the players and PCs" and they bend over backwards to make the game very easy. They start with things like maximum hit points and bonus hit points. Then they double down by being a passive easy DM. It is most obvious in fights where such a DM does not even try to hurt, harm or kill the characters. The DM will flat out say they don't kill PCs in their game often enough. They just want combat to be a fun romp, much like the typical combat you see in any movie or TV show.

 

[Blue]

Sure there are very few optimizers that do it for good complex reasons.

I'm going to stop here.

Because at this point, you've agreed -- while you see a high overlap between optimizers and jerks, being an optimizer does not require you to be a jerk.

If you want to get rid of jerks at a table, including jerks who use optimization as a tool, I'm with you. I support you 100%.

But since be both agree that you can be an optimizer without being a jerk, that means being a jerk isn't inherent to being an optimizer. So therefore shouldn't be part of the discussion about them.

Throw out the jerks, and that takes care of jerk optimizers as well. Because it's a separate thing.

Correlation is not causation.

 

[bloodtide]

One thing that I have not seen mentioned is that, if someone is optimizing to hyper-focus on one thing, they are going to leave themselves vulnerable elsewhere. GMs can take advantage and split the group. Put the character(s) in situations where the group is either split up by external forces or, to succeed, has to split up into smaller groups or as individuals. Then, place characters in situations for which they are not optimized, but still have some chance of success.

I am this type a DM. And I do love breaking Optimizers and send them crying from the game.

But to back up a bit.....

I do love optimization, and I'm an optimizer myself. Though as a Forever DM I am a homebrew optimizer: To be clear I don't play the silly Magic Card sub game of "who has better game master using the official rules". I make my own homebrew far outside the rules.

But when it comes to players, who are locked into the official rules, I put optimization as part of the three pillars of play: optimization, teamwork and intelligence. Nearly all typical optimizers are only optimizing to fuel their ego and be jerks. This type of player does not do well in my game.

First of all I role play a lot....that "acting" type role play. Sure the optimizaer can have their character do 100d100 damage, but ask them to speak in character that they just sit there like a blithering idiot.
And more so, the character will often encounter things that are not combat. So doing 100d100 damage does not help with anything other then combat, and again the poor player will be lost.

And second, the more extreme one, combat in my game is hard. Most foes try to kill the PCs every single round of combat. And foes hide, climb trees, and use all sorts of basic tactics. Plus most of my adventure game world has dangerous terrain....to the extreme. Optimizers don't fare well here.....their character will take damage and die, leaving the poor player shocked. And even a simple flying foe will leave them beyond flustered.

But, this is where the other two pillars come in: teamwork and intelligence. Teamwork gives you access to other things you don't have, and intelligence gives you to skill to use your optimized character correctly.

A fun one from just last weekend.....The PCs get attacked by some wererats in the sewers. And the wererats only attack twice...then run. Optimized players hate this and charge right after fleeing foes. The wererats head down a tunnel with an Ur classic 'section of floor where they scurry across at rat size'. The optimizers are just saying "I"m super duper" and run right into this false floor trap....fall 30 feet onto poisioned spikes in acid with acidborn sharks. And they die quick enough.

Of course, intelligence here would have told them not to run after wererats and to be careful of such traps and even tell them about the whole 'rat size' trap trigger. Teamwork with the other character could have detected the trap and been prepared for the obvious fall trap by roping each other together.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Throw out the jerks, and that takes care of jerk optimizers as well. Because it's a separate thing.

When you're throwing out the jerks I suggest starting with people who love sending people crying from the table; I find it hard to imagine being more of a jerk than this at a gaming table without actual physical violence. I would then move on to people who define a group that people call themselves as an insult and pretend that one subgroup makes up the whole group.

Optimizers optimise because they find the process of optimisation and system mastery fun in its own right in ways that normally don't see the gaming table. Does anyone think that more than about 1% of the builds on the WotC Character Optimization board got played back in the day? Seriously? Or that Pun-Pun was made to be brought to a table rather than something shown off?

Meanwhile anti-optimizers in my experience and based on this thread seem almost mortally offended by two things

1. People having badwrongfun
2. The concept that some people can be more skilled than others with a ruleset (or possibly the concept they themselves aren't the best)

 

[Laurefindel]

The bulk are jerks, or worse. Optimization is fuel for egos. The player is just thinking about themselves and specificity is not thinking about others.

Whoa there buddy. You’re laying it on pretty thick here.

 

[Wolfram stout]

Whoa there buddy. You’re laying it on pretty thick here.

Yeah. I'm kind of stunned that I seem to fall into the disruptive ego-driven jerk camp because I put my highest score in the class appropriate stat and chose spells that seem best for the job at hand.

Of course I do that in real life, I did not major in math back in college cause I am not very good at it.