Optimization and optimizers...

[bloodtide]

, but what does -5 look like as a metric of play?

I would put -5 at not knowing how to play much at all. The first timer, or the guy that played with his brother a couple times or that classic guy that played a little back at school. Also that casual player that plays in a game every couple months.

-4 Are the players with no interest in the rules. They have been playing the game for years, and don't even know most of the basic rules. Casual Gamers and Social Gamers.

-3 Know a couple rules, but not too many. They just want to have random fun. They don't want to think to much about a "silly game".

-2 They know most of the rules players might need to know.....but they are all twisted and confused. Often from a past Buddy DM with very Easy Button house rules . That they think are official rules. And they don't understand most rules anyway, and get confused by big words and concepts.

-1 knows the rules slightly below average, but they are stubbornly 'stuck' on something. Often a race or class, but just as often a play style. They often like to take odd feats, classes, abilties or whatever as the "like them" , and they don't help the character.

This feels way too far off the deep end in an otherwise polite conversation.

What can I say, I'm Deep.

The fact is optimizers must play in games zero or below to have fun. They must play in a game that has little to no optimization. And they need an Easy Buddy DM.

 

[Seramus]

The fact is optimizers must play in games zero or below to have fun. They must play in a game that has little to no optimization. And they need an Easy Buddy DM.

No, I have fun in many different kinds of games. From the angst-ridden Chronicles of Darkness, to a lot of Daggerheart recently, to Nobilis/Scion/Exalted style games where screaming stars out of existence is just part of the game. When I'm not the GM, I love playing support characters and watching other people at my table soar - whether that is a Treatmonk style control Wizard, someone who buffs the party so they can do amazing things, or just some grumpy super-healer yelling that it's just a flesh wound so get your sorry arses up!

I do admit that permissive GMs are a lot more to my tastes than restrictive GMs.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Optimization is a tool, and like any tool, it can be used for good or ill.

My own feeling is that I usually go into a game with an idea of the things a character is supposed to be good at, and will try to use the game tools available to produce that result (and when available, the tools to make them have binding versions of the problems they're supposed to have). This is only a problem if the character concept is, itself, a problem for other people in the game. If it is, either I'm doing something wrong or am fundamentally in the wrong game.

A problem can always arise when different people have different definitions of what "good" means, but that's not a problem with the process itself.

 

[Wolfram stout]

I would put -5 at not knowing how to play much at all. The first timer, or the guy that played with his brother a couple times or that classic guy that played a little back at school. Also that casual player that plays in a game every couple months.

-4 Are the players with no interest in the rules. They have been playing the game for years, and don't even know most of the basic rules. Casual Gamers and Social Gamers.

-3 Know a couple rules, but not too many. They just want to have random fun. They don't want to think to much about a "silly game".

-2 They know most of the rules players might need to know.....but they are all twisted and confused. Often from a past Buddy DM with very Easy Button house rules . That they think are official rules. And they don't understand most rules anyway, and get confused by big words and concepts.

-1 knows the rules slightly below average, but they are stubbornly 'stuck' on something. Often a race or class, but just as often a play style. They often like to take odd feats, classes, abilties or whatever as the "like them" , and they don't help the character.


What can I say, I'm Deep.

The fact is optimizers must play in games zero or below to have fun. They must play in a game that has little to no optimization. And they need an Easy Buddy DM.

Why would an optimizer need an easy buddy DM? By my definition (and I don't think I am off the wall here) an optimizer builds characters that thrive on hard mode. Their thrill is going in and punching above their weight.

Problems come in when you have another player that doesn't like building those type of characters. As the nearly forever DM in my group I am lucky that the biggest optimizer in my group is not a munchkin and the biggest non optimizer makes very interesting characters that always manage to surprise with to play.

 

[soviet]

What can I say, I'm Deep.

 

[soviet]

Degenerate optimisation is a system matters problem, specifically it's either a user error by the group/GM in selecting the wrong system for the experience they want, or it's a user error by the publisher in printing the wrong system for the experience they want. There are lots of RPGs that allow for little or no optimisation.

 

[bloodtide]

Why would an optimizer need an easy buddy DM? By my definition (and I don't think I am off the wall here) an optimizer builds characters that thrive on hard mode. Their thrill is going in and punching above their weight.

If an Optimizer does not have a Buddy DM they don't get the 'fun' of optimization. They need that DM that is 100% on their side. Or the DM that is Clueless. Or the DM that is Spineless. Or a DM that is all three.
Your Definition is fine for an "Ideal" one, but like most definitions it suffers when in reality.

Problems come in when you have another player that doesn't like building those type of characters. As the nearly forever DM in my group I am lucky that the biggest optimizer in my group is not a munchkin and the biggest non optimizer makes very interesting characters that always manage to surprise with to play.

They cause lots of game problems too.

 

[Bill Zebub]

But players out to break things and ruin everybody’s fun are not just optimizers; they’re jerks who use optimisation to ruin everybody’s fun.

Exactly this.

The argument that "all optimizers are jerks out to ruin everybody's fun" is symmetric to the argument that "roleplayers are out to prevent anybody from ever being successful" just because some people use "that's what my character would do" to grief the party.

I'm also coming to the conclusion that the people making sweeping generalizations about optimizers being disruptive simply aren't noticing when non-disruptive players have optimized characters.

 

[Bill Zebub]

I would put -5 at not knowing how to play much at all. The first timer, or the guy that played with his brother a couple times or that classic guy that played a little back at school. Also that casual player that plays in a game every couple months.

-4 Are the players with no interest in the rules. They have been playing the game for years, and don't even know most of the basic rules. Casual Gamers and Social Gamers.

-3 Know a couple rules, but not too many. They just want to have random fun. They don't want to think to much about a "silly game".

-2 They know most of the rules players might need to know.....but they are all twisted and confused. Often from a past Buddy DM with very Easy Button house rules . That they think are official rules. And they don't understand most rules anyway, and get confused by big words and concepts.

-1 knows the rules slightly below average, but they are stubbornly 'stuck' on something. Often a race or class, but just as often a play style. They often like to take odd feats, classes, abilties or whatever as the "like them" , and they don't help the character.


What can I say, I'm Deep.

The fact is optimizers must play in games zero or below to have fun. They must play in a game that has little to no optimization. And they need an Easy Buddy DM.

Methinks you have a definition of "optimizer" that nobody else on the planet is using. Or understands.

 

[bloodtide]

I'm also coming to the conclusion that the people making sweeping generalizations about optimizers being disruptive simply aren't noticing when non-disruptive players have optimized characters.

Sure, it was agreed that there are a few good optimizers. A few diamonds in the rough. Really....nothing to say about them. So, ok, all of the bulk of other optimizers:

Methinks you have a definition of "optimizer" that nobody else on the planet is using. Or understands.

Happens to me a lot, I'm used to it.

Optimizer Doppelganger- this is a cover word used by bad players that either want to play the game for a personal ego trip or just get joy out of disrupting the fun of other people. they seek out games where they can thrive (see above).