Optimization and optimizers...

[bloodtide]

So unless you have some reason to believe the majority of this thread are all lying to you and/or confused, perhaps you should reassess here.

There are big problems with this....not the least of that is Peer Pressure and Conformity. "Everyone" quite often says the same things as they want to fit it: it is human nature, It does not make "everyone" right, ever.

The Majority is not always right....

 

[Greg K]

Min-Maxers will try to get the highest bonus and leave the biggest weaknesses wide open. Oftentimes that is less than optimal. These builds don’t score high on my optimizer scale…

That is not a good min-maxer. The term min-maxer originates from maximizing strengths and minimizing weaknesses.

 

[Seramus]

If it's intentional, yeah, it's a jerk thing. It's not always intentional--at least, I've seen instances that I didn't think were.

I've absolutely stepped on toes that were not even in my niche. It wasn't intended in the slightest. Sometimes I've openly apologized, but more often I just silently note it and never try to do it again - always letting Jane take the spotlight on those times, or sometimes being the "Helper" that is clearly subordinate in the narrative.

I'm personally really relaxed about people stepping on my niche, as long as you're not an exact copy of my character. Want to be fireball buddies? Sure, we'll rain down fire together! On the flip side, I get antsy about being specifically countered in my niche - like someone joining the game with an undead hating paladin, knowing full well that I was already playing a necromancer.

 

[Thomas Shey]

There are big problems with this....not the least of that is Peer Pressure and Conformity. "Everyone" quite often says the same things as they want to fit it: it is human nature, It does not make "everyone" right, ever.

The Majority is not always right....

And that's an excuse often pulled out by someone who wants to play the Brave lone Truthteller.

If you think people on this board hesitate to tell others on it they're wrong all the time, I don't know what board you've been reading.

 

[prabe]

I've absolutely stepped on toes that were not even in my niche. It wasn't intended in the slightest. Sometimes I've openly apologized, but more often I just silently note it and never try to do it again - always letting Jane take the spotlight on those times, or sometimes being the "Helper" that is clearly subordinate in the narrative.

I'm personally really relaxed about people stepping on my niche, as long as you're not an exact copy of my character. Want to be fireball buddies? Sure, we'll rain down fire together! On the flip side, I get antsy about being specifically countered in my niche - like someone joining the game with an undead hating paladin, knowing full well that I was already playing a necromancer.

Yeah. Catching yourself out in behavior you strongly dislike in others is ... usually not a fun time. I mostly share your feelings about people jumping into my niche, though I can get a bit bothered if someone's doing it in addition to some other niche they say is their primary. Having someone bting in a character that negates another PC just sounds like a crap player, regardless of how hard they're optimizing.

 

[Bill Zebub]

Yeah. Catching yourself out in behavior you strongly dislike in others is ... usually not a fun time. I mostly share your feelings about people jumping into my niche, though I can get a bit bothered if someone's doing it in addition to some other niche they say is their primary. Having someone being in a character that negates another PC just sounds like a crap player, regardless of how hard they're optimizing.

The real solution is...or would be?...game design such that two characters in one niche makes both more effective, and also fun to play, instead of one negating the other.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The real solution is...or would be?...game design such that two characters in one niche makes both more effective, and also fun to play, instead of one negating the other.

The first half of that's easy to do, but the second not so much, especially given how schematic a lot of non-combat mechanics in a lot of games tend to be.

 

[prabe]

The real solution is...or would be?...game design such that two characters in one niche makes both more effective, and also fun to play, instead of one negating the other.

Or just have a better sense of what the other players around the table are making. Either would be a real solution, I think, though I don't think they're so mutually exclusive as you seem to.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As I said, the bulk of the jerk optimizers what to be a super star in the game. And they can only do that in an easy game. Again, please note there is nothing wrong with having and running an easy game. If it is your idea of fun it is fine.

Sure, "jerk optimizers"/munchkins absolutely do thrive in easy games. That's why Monty Haul games tended to be associated with them. Especially because "jerk optimizers" are often not very good at optimizing, so they benefit from the easy-ness particularly.

But that's a distinct subset of "optimzers" in the way that crocodiles are a distinct subset of reptiles - the conditions that benefit them do not necessarily benefit all reptiles.

It is rare to see well rounded characters, even with optimizers. Most optimizers fall into the optimization trap is always wanting more, so even if they have a DC 30 effect...they still want that ability/feat/item that gives them a +2 more. And you so see this with damage.

No. Optimization is relative. If a well-rounded character is beneficial, that's the optimized PC. If a specialized one, then that's the optimized one. If you "rarely see" well-rounded PCs from optimizers either one of two things is true:

A) You're playing a game/games where specialization is beneficial.

B) You're playing with inept optimizers.

It is simple enough:

An Optimizer only cares about playing the pure mechanical game, it's the whole game to them. When you put a lot of time and effort into a mechanical character, the last thing you want to do is sit back and just role play...the 'acting' type of role play where you do nothing but talk.

It's a simple enough lie, sure.

You can repeat the lie over and over but it's still fundamentally a direct and flat lie.

That's not what an "optimizer" is. It's just a weird lie. The bolded part is a particularly wild and insane lie.

What you're describing is a "jerk optimizer", or more specifically, a munchkin. Also your suggestion doesn't pick out "optimizers", it also picks out anyone who likes RPGs as opposed to pure RP, like people who enjoy combat, exploration, etc. etc. - basically the majority of D&D players aren't keep on pure "chat room RP" like you're describing as the SOLE method of play. You will however attract a huge number of people who want to pretend to be Goku, Sonic the Hedgehog, etc.!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I won't try to intuit why you do want to do that. I'll just point out that it doesn't actually add to the conversation.

Opinions aren't points, mate. You haven't pointed that out, you've expressed that opinion. Which is fine but different.

And I strongly disagree with your opinion, because it seems like shallow Californian-style "peace and love" to me rather than anything practical. It's important to recognise bad behaviour as bad behaviour, and you take a position where you don't even try and figure out why it's happening, you're doomed to a cycle of it continuing to happen, because you can't take reasonable preventative measures or attempt solutions.

The reality is, virtually all humans go through a period of childishness and emotional immaturity - usually as children and sometimes up into their 20s. Very occasionally it last longer or indefinitely (especially in people who have been wealthy since their 20s).

And people going through this are the main source of munchkins and "jerk optimizers" or however you want to name them. You can pretend this is some terrible condemnation, but we've all been immature, so that rings extremely false. It's about recognising and dealing with this. It's not about writing a list of "bad people" or w/e to "punish them", as seems to be your underlying concern, but until you understand how something works, you can't do anything meaningful about it, can you? It's hard to even avoid it!

Also "denigrating their behaviour" is bad when the behaviour we're discussing is "actively destroying the fun of others"? That is pretty next-level lol. What next, a guy squats and poops on your living room floor whilst making eye-contact and smirking at you, and you're like "Well, I'm sure he had his reasons, which I cannot fathom, who am I to judge him or consider why he did it!", rather than thinking "Perhaps there is a way to identify potential floor-poppers and intervene with them before they poop on my floor?"?