Optimizing A Bard

[akbearfoot]

I would ask your DM to allow you to take the song of the Heart feat from Ebberon, and the Inspirational boost spell from the spell compendium(a 1st level bard spell).

Both the feat and the spell give you a +1 bonus on your inspire courage ability...Bardic music is basically a bards largest contribution to a group, combat wise. Since generally fighting takes up a big chunk of a gaming groups time it's important not to totally suck in combat

If you can do the +3 inspire courage early on, you can focus most of your other stuff on the social skills so you can be the party face, and information broker etc...Which is handy, but usually not quite so vital as keeping yourselves alive.

 

[Griego]

Inspire Courage Optimization

 

[Timely Drought]

About all the inspire courage optimization, its not gonna happen. We're doing Core + Complete series only. I'm not going to ask for exceptions for a bunch of stuff. I wouldn't want the other players to import broken combinations of feats from other sources either.

Skills you haven't listed that I would consider important:
Bard Class Skills: Appraise, Climb, Disguise, Escape, Hide, Move Silently, Swim
Cross Class: Ride, Search, Spot (too bad you can't get Read Lips, seems natural for a Sonic based Character Class)

Personally, I think its important that every PC has at least one rank in Ride and Swim. Then again, they can do these untrained.

Appraise you can bypass since you got Bard Knowledge.

But Hide and Move Silently! As Class Skills? You should seriously consider them. Disguise for obvious reasons too, CHA bonus, and maybe synergy bonus with Bluff and or Perform (you might be Performing as a Drag Queen, for example).

Climb (and Jump for that matter) would be good for a Roguish Bard, but probably not as key as Hide and Move Silently, not to mention Escape Artist. Plus the bonus for the former two is STR...

I really don't see the use of hide and move silently. For a rogue, sure. And rangers. But a bard? I'd rather hide in plain sight and totally abuse disguise spell and/or subsonics. If I'm desperate to sneak around I can use invisibility and silence.

As for the rest, they don't seem as good as what I've picked already. I've got Jack of All Trades, so I have half my my level in all of these skills anyway, and can use them all untrained.

I'm going for sleight of hand for my last feat to replace concentration, since its handy for both swiping things and the conceal spellcasting skill trick in Complete Scoundrel.

I noticed from a bard optimization thread that since virtuoso spellcasting starts at 2, you can pick 1 virtuoso level, then 1 sublime chord, then the rest in virtuoso to increase the sublime chord progression. Although thats the kind of optimization I dislike. It completely disregards PrCs as the special training of elite organizations in the game world. Jumping from one prestige class to another should not be allowed, in my opinion. Also, virtuoso is a rather silly prestige class. The last thing bards need are to be made sillier.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Do the bluff, knowledge (nobility), and sense motive synergies stack to +6, or do I only get +2 with all three at 5 or more?

Yes, they all stack, and bards are great at diplomacy, so that would be a good route to go.

Just one comment on the feat selections: I've never seen a need for lingering song. Any bard song that doesn't require concentration to keep up (like most of the combat ones) are FREE actions to maintain after the first standard action. Melodic Casting lets you cast while performing so...why the need for lingering song? If all that wasn't enough, many bard songs already linger for 5 rounds anyway. In combat, that's enough. Out of combat, how often are you going to need to keep a song's effects up that long but not be able to perform? You even have subsonics to perform discreetly.

 

[Artoomis]

...I've never seen a need for lingering song. Any bard song that doesn't require concentration to keep up (like most of the combat ones) are FREE actions to maintain after the first standard action. Melodic Casting lets you cast while performing so...why the need for lingering song? If all that wasn't enough, many bard songs already linger for 5 rounds anyway. In combat, that's enough. Out of combat, how often are you going to need to keep a song's effects up that long but not be able to perform? You even have subsonics to perform discreetly.

Lingering song is needed depending upon DM's interpretation. Some rule that you can only have one of the "Inspire" abilities actively maintain at one time. The rules actually allow for you to start one and maintain it even while starting another, but not everyone sees it that way.

Five rounds is not quite enough for combat (experience talking here). When you go into "alpha strike" mode and get ready to strike with full buffs up and running, you need more than five rounds. If, and only if, your DM goes with the rules as written (where you can maintain multiple Inspire abilities), then Lingering Song is not needed.

 

[Jack Simth]

Bard-2/Fighter-1/Bard +2/Ur-Priest-2/Mystic Theurge-3 (Bard/Ur-Priest)/Sublime Chord-1/Mystic Theurge (Sublime Chord/Ur-Priest)-5/Arcane PrC of Choice-4 (Sublime Chord).

This is a spellcasting bard. Gets both 9th level Arcane (at 19th) and 9th level Divine spells (at 15th or 16th, depending on Wisdom). Evil and MAD, though, but quite good at mid-high levels (the 15-17 range, when it's got better spell access than the pure casters). Requires Int (for skill points), Wis (for Ur-Priest casting), and Cha (for Sublime Chord casting).

A simpler build that still gets 9th level spells, is a lot more bardic, would be a Bard-10/Sublime Chord-10.

 

[Achan hiArusa]

Combat Bard:

Human

Lore Song in the place of Bardic Knowledge (Dungeonscape)
Snowflake Wardance (Frostburn)
Battledancer (PHB II)
Power Attack
Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer)
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Greatsword

And see if your DM will read the spirit of Song of the Heart instead of the words (it boosts all Bardic song abilities by +1, but it only lists songs from Eberron and the Core book).

 

[aboyd]

And see if your DM will read the spirit of Song of the Heart instead of the words (it boosts all Bardic song abilities by +1, but it only lists songs from Eberron and the Core book).

??? You posted this after he said -- and repeated -- that he wouldn't accept anything from Eberron, Spell Compendium, or anything other than core + Complete. That doesn't make sense.

As to Bard spells, I really try to go for all the Sonic-oriented spells, in addition to the usual combo of offense and defense. Modify Memory, Ventriloquism, Whispering Wind, Sculpt Sound, Shout, etc. I find Phantom Steed very useful, as Bards definitely travel a lot.

From this comment I suspect that taliesin15 has genuinely played bards before, not just looked over the writeup in the PHB. I would second his comments, but from a different angle -- if you're playing a bard, then you might as well actually use bard-specific skills and spells. Many of the spells that taliesin15 listed are bard-specific.

You have to be into using the songs (or taking abilities that allow you to swap your song abilities for extra spells) and willing to use diplomacy and disguise and such. Your character is a talker, a singer, a social skill marvel. If you are not down with that, don't try to change the bard into another class -- just play the other class.

Also, don't forget that in the Complete books, the bard gets a lot of swift & immediate spells. You should give them slightly more consideration than other bard spells, because swift & immediate spells are only swift & immediate if you know them. Buying swift & immediate spells on scrolls or in wands automatically makes them standard actions, thus negating a lot of their usefulness.

1. Lingering Song (Complete Adventurer) makes effects last longer
2. Lyric Spell (Complete Adventurer) swaps bardic music for extra spells
3. Extra Music (Complete Adventurer) with Lyric Spell = more spells.
4. Inspriational Boost (Complete Adventurer) give +1 to your song bonuses
5. Fly, Swift (Complete Adventurer) gets you flying for 1 round, to escape
6. Invisibility, Swift (Complete Adventurer) hides you for one round, to escape
7. Sonic Weapon (Complete Adventurer) +1d6 to any weapon, even causes arrows & bolts to gain the bonus, and it cannot be saved against, and it works for each attack, even if the character gets many per round.
8. Immediate Assistance (Complete Mage) allows bard to interrupt another player's turn when that player is failing badly, and grant them a re-roll
9. Deafening Blast (Complete Mage) permanently deafens everyone in a burst radius. Even if they save, they're still deafened for a round. This is useful against spellcasters, as it gives them a failure chance when casting. The only problem? The list of bard spells on page 90 says it's 2nd level, while the spell description on page 101 says it's 3rd level. There is no errata for this book, so no real indication of what was intended. Usually with errata they go with the spell description, but not always. I can see advantages to going either way (higher level, harder DC, lower level, easier access).
10. Painful Echoes (Complete Mage) causes 1d4 damage/round plus applies the "sickened" state to the target(s) -- while it has a saving throw, they have to re-save every round so the odds are in your favor that this eventually gets enemies in every fight. Also, like a skill synergy, this spell has a synergy with Deafening Blast, causing the "stunned" state to be applied to the target(s) if they are already under Deafening Blast, which is lovely.
11. Melodic Casting (Complete Mage) lets you cast spells while concentrating on bardic music effects
12. Captivating Melody (Complete Mage) increases the save DC of your spells

 

[Achan hiArusa]

??? You posted this after he said -- and repeated -- that he wouldn't accept anything from Eberron, Spell Compendium, or anything other than core + Complete. That doesn't make sense.

Pfft. So? Its a build I came up with and I felt like sharing.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Lingering song is needed depending upon DM's interpretation. Some rule that you can only have one of the "Inspire" abilities actively maintain at one time. The rules actually allow for you to start one and maintain it even while starting another, but not everyone sees it that way.

Interesting. I would have thought that the existence of the Combine Songs class feature some Bard PrC's get in CWarrior and CAdventurer would make it pretty clear Bards are at least not intended to maintain multiple songs at once as the norm. And since when was it required to use multiple songs per encounter in order to win?

Five rounds is not quite enough for combat (experience talking here).

And in my experience, SIX rounds (the round you started counts, too) is almost always enough.

When you go into "alpha strike" mode and get ready to strike with full buffs up and running, you need more than five rounds.

Is this normal? In all of my games, the occurances of us buffing up like crazy and charging in like a SWAT team are rare, and the DM would not normally present too many situations to make use of that "tactic." Maybe for scry-buff-teleport, but I've also never actually seen that. Also, I have to wonder, you say Lingering Song is not needed only by a specific DM ruling, but your example of why it's useful is just as much DM fiat. Like I said, in my games, those SWAT scenarios seldom exist, so unless the DM allows that, Lingering Song is of no value for that purpose.

If, and only if, your DM goes with the rules as written (where you can maintain multiple Inspire abilities), then Lingering Song is not needed.

I think it's a great feat, just not for most bards. Most of the other feats on the OP's list solve problems Lingering Song was meant to make less devastating. For example, Melodic Casting came out after Lingering Song. before it, your best bet was to start a song, let it linger for the extended time,and start casting. With MC, you no longer need to stop performing. Similarly, you could use lingering song to half-arse "covert singing" such as "rob, rob, rob the merchant!" basically doing the performance away from suspicious ears and riding the effect long enough to walk in and do whatever. With Subsonics feat, that's also not an issue at all any longer.

In conclusion, I think Lingering Song's a great feat to ~30% cover the functions of each of a number of other feats, and thus a good choice for a feat-strapped Bard. But if you can afford Melodic Casting, Subsonics, and maybe even Somatic Weaponry, it becomes far less important.