Optimizing a Con-based Warlock

[Dannyalcatraz]

Not at all- to the first part. Twofold Pact (which I erroneously called Twin Pact before) is another virtual must-have feat, though, because it's essentially a multiclassing feat that has almost no downside.

What I'm saying is you need to figure out what you want from your warlock, knowing that the class has certain weaknesses in the striker role (range, DPR).

As noted, a Starpact Warlock suffers from sort of needing 2 high stats, plus a third for his rider effects. The rules alleviate this somewhat in that you can pick any warlock power- you just won't get all the pact related riders. Plus, it IS the most accurate of the Warlock pacts.

At one point, my plan WAS to use Twofold Pact to add Infernal to my mix, and play that "Suicide Black" design I mentioned before (as I recall, Sacrifice to Caiphon has Star Pact as a prereq). However, over time, my concept has morphed a bit. Because I multiclassed into Psion, I'm probably going to take the Dreamwalker (Psion) Paragon Path and so Fey Pact seems more appropriate.

So, ask yourself: what kind of high-Con stuff do you want to do?

If it's central to your character's identity that he's ultra-tough, the Infernal pact might be better for you as your primary pact, adding another (Star, Vestige, Sorc-King, whatever) at Paragon.

If your concept is strongly linked to the Star Pact's flavor and he happens to be tough, stick with it. Aim for feats like StC, Tougness, Durability and so forth.

With your second high stat being Int (for riders?) as opposed to Cha, it would seem to be a natural thing to MC into another Con-centered class or an Int-based class (Wiz, Psion?) that gets you some new tricks. If you do so, check out what Genasi racial feats might help you with BOTH classes.

More specifics: I didn't go with Killing Curse, instead going for Improved Fate of the Void. While KC improves DPM, certainly, but FotV improves accuracy...and any other D20 roll you'd make after your boon triggers, and IFotV doubles it. Since you can have your curse on multiple opponents at the same time, this can add up.

While you can't do curse damage to all of them, you CAN get your pact boon for all of them (if they're all dropped to 0 HP before your next action). Unlike other pact boons, FotV is ALWAYS useful (unlike multiple moves from Fey Pact). It always stacks (unlike THP from Infernal Pact). As you move through the combat, cursing everyone you can, you can get a cascade effect- getting a +8 to hit before you unleash your Daily is a nice thing to have.

So KC is more dependable damage, but IFotV can make a single attack a near guaranteed hit. Or help you make a critical save. Etc.

 

[Xia Lin]

Amy thoughts on Hidden Sniper vs Rod Expertise vs Shadow Initiate vs Ulban's Flare?
As I only have two feats so far, just trying to see whats a better mix.
And no, I'm not necessarily tied to Star Pact. WHichever one works best

Any thoughts on the weapons and magical items?

So far from my build, I have the second highest AC in my group so don't get hit that much. Could enhance it further or improve other things like attacks or damage.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Don't have my books with me at the moment, so while I recognize names, details escape me. So, going off the top of my head:

HS is useful almost 100% of the time, and works with all of your attacks. All you have to do is move squares, and you'll be sling that to maintain your ShadowWalk benefits.

Rod Expertise is a good feat- most of the Expertise feats are- but it does tie you to using Rods. If your Rod is stolen or you can't use it for whatever reason, you'll be griping.

Shadow Initiate...is that the one where you get benefits from being in/near shadows? If so, I thought it had nice benefits but was too situational unless you devoted your build to Shadow powers.

Ulban's Flare doesn't ring any bells.

Weapons: you have Eldritch blast, so you pretty much don't need a ranged weapon unless you want to be able to strike outside of 10sq. Nothing wrong with that- softening up foes before they close is a viable tactic proven through the millennia of warfare. However, most long-range weapons require 2 hands, so you would be at least temporarily sacrificing the use of your implements.

IME, because of the necessities of keeping ShadowWalk working + my powers being limited to 10sq range + trying to curse as many foes as possible, I wind up risking being engaged in melee combat more than other ranged snipers, leaders and controllers. So while melee weapons are not a huge concern, you should still get the biggest 1-handed or thematically appropriate weapon you can. My warlock is a Dwarf, so he's got a Warhammer. I keep toying with the idea of taking Dwarven Weapon Training so I can use a Craghammer- especially useful if/when I get a PactHammer.

Note on Pact Blades: they can be any kind of light blade, so if your concept has enoug spare feats to do so, burn one for proficiency a better light blade- shortsword, Kukri, whatever so that when you get one, your pact blade will be a serious melee threat.

Don't worry too much about your AC. At some point, yours will be among the worst. But as a Con based caster, your HP will remain ridiculously high. I've RARELY been bloodied.

Personally, if forced to make a decision between accuracy and damage enhancement in 4Ed, I'll choose accuracy nearly every time. Unlike previous versions of the game, there are almost no iterative attacks, so if you miss, that's it. And unless you're using attacks that are reliable or have effects even if you miss- virtually non-existent for Warlocks- your power fizzles away uselessly. (That's one reason why Sacrifice to Caiphon is such a big deal.)

 

[Xia Lin]

Shadow Initiate is an Assasin MC which allows placing of shrouds (up to 4) on an enemy and then release them to do damage. Sort of like a Warlock Curse. As a MC, it is an Encounter power which can be used twice during an encounter.

Ulban's Flare increases your damage by 2 and penalises the target with a -2 to it's attack rolls.

So would you recommend my dropping Killing Curse and replacing with Hidden Sniper?
As I'm level 2, only have 2 feats so trying to pick the most useful 2 at this point.

As to range weapons, not really looking at those as I will just use the Eldritch Blast.
On melee weapons, I have a dagger which I would eventualy use/replace as Pact Blade though would consider something better.

My initial thought was two have two rods. ANy thoughts on that?

Thanks for all the suggestions.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Shadow Initiate

Mmm...still don't know that one. What is the key stat and how do you accumulate shadows? Originally, my PC had MCed into Ranger- again, for that Dungeoneering- and that Hunter's Quarry damage didn't do me much good because of accuracy (then again, I was rolling CRAPPY).

My gut feeling is that if you MC, it needs to be into a Con or Int based class, and only one that gets you something you really don't have (beyond a skill): healing, a long range attack, an AoE attack...

Ulban's Flare

Tell me more.

So would you recommend my dropping Killing Curse and replacing with Hidden Sniper?

That's what I would do. I would also value IFotV above KC, ESPECIALLY with a Rod of Corruption. The RoC means you'll probably be trading Curse damage to spread your curse around at least once per encounter, and as each of those Cursed foes fall, you get a bonus to your next d20 roll...and +2 per trigger is better than +1.

Two rods is OK, but I'd rather go rod & mace (or dagger). Your movments aside, there are enough mobility effects in the game that I'd simply be loathe to be without some kind of actual weapon in hand. Note, however, there ARE Rods that are also weapons.

Remember also that, while there is a Dual Implement Wielder feat, it requires a higher Dex than you'll ever have.

 

[Xia Lin]

Shadow Initiate [Multiclass Assassin]
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain training in the Stealth skill.
Twice per encounter, you can use the assassin’s shroud
power. In addition, you can wield assassin implements.

Assasin's Shroud
Effect: You subject the target to your shroud. If any of your shrouds are already on the target, you subject it to an additional shroud, up to a maximum of four. The shrouds last until you use this power against a different enemy or until the end of the encounter.
Before you make an attack roll against the target, you choose to invoke either all your shrouds on it or none of them. If you invoke your shrouds, as a free action deal 1d6 damage per shroud, minus one shroud if the attack misses, and all your shrouds then vanish from the target. This damage roll never benefits from bonuses to damage rolls.

Ulban’s Flare
Prerequisite: Warlock, star pact
Benefit: When you hit a creature with dire radiance and you have concealment or total concealment from that target, the target takes 2 extra damage and a –2 penalty to attack rolls until the end of your next turn. The extra damage increases to 4 at 11th level and to 6 at 21st level.

Hope the above helps to clarify.

Ok, I have a dagger and mace in my list of equipment, just in case.
Was thinking of having two magic rods eventually, a rod of corruption and a quickcurse rod. Could either of these be used as a weapon or just an implement?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Shadow Initiate [Multiclass Assassin]
Prerequisite: Dex 13
Benefit: You gain training in the Stealth skill.
Twice per encounter, you can use the assassin’s shroud
power. In addition, you can wield assassin implements.

Well, besides the fact you don't have the Dex prereq, it looks like a bad bargain. At best, you'd get is 2d6 damage, probably less. You'd be much better off with a Wizard or Psion attack power. Magic missile, for instance, has great range, decent damage, and autohits.

Ulban's Flare looks decent, especially in conjunction with some of the accuracy boosters mentioned upthread. It will do more damage on average than KC. Much more: it does +2 damage per use of an At-Will, as opposed to adding an average of +1 per Curse use.

As for the Rods, I know the RoC cannot (my PC has one). The other I don't know, but it will say if it can or not explicitly in the item's description.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Shadow Initiate is an Assasin MC which allows placing of shrouds (up to 4) on an enemy and then release them to do damage. Sort of like a Warlock Curse. As a MC, it is an Encounter power which can be used twice during an encounter.

Yeah, I say 'meh' on that. Get Warrior of the Wild and slap an HQ on someone. You get at least two shots at reaping the bonus damage, and you can pick up Stealth or another useful skill if you already have that. I've found that to be more useful.

Ulban's Flare increases your damage by 2 and penalises the target with a -2 to it's attack rolls.

Yeah, this is a really nasty feat. I'd actually forgotten it exists. Arguably better than the other two, though there will be a few cases where it will not come off (IE if you're immobilized etc).

So would you recommend my dropping Killing Curse and replacing with Hidden Sniper?
As I'm level 2, only have 2 feats so trying to pick the most useful 2 at this point.

Well, lets see.... KC is basically upping your DPR by around .25 roughly, though it can be more if you can trigger more curse damage, but that's not easy to do. OTOH getting a +1 to-hit is about a 5% DPR increase, or say more like .75 or so at level 1, AND you get more hits, which means more conditions applied. I'd go for Expertise or HS.

As to range weapons, not really looking at those as I will just use the Eldritch Blast.
On melee weapons, I have a dagger which I would eventualy use/replace as Pact Blade though would consider something better.

My initial thought was two have two rods. ANy thoughts on that?

Thanks for all the suggestions.

Eh, I think weapons are really not worth messing with unless you're going for something specific. Hex Hammer builds for instance are great, but I wouldn't burn resources on fiddling with blades unless you need to. Pact Blade is all well and good, and you can get some use out of one, but it is really mostly a backup item.

Wielding 2 rods at higher levels is certainly well worth it, and pretty standard. You can get DIS for instance, and curse spamming is always fun. Most of the really egregious ways to cheese that stuff are gone nowadays though. Still, it never hurts to have that second implement, and it need not be a rod either. OOIC or Staff of Ruin are things that warlocks can have fun with, albeit they cost you a feat. I'd note too that there are some weapons that might even be worth looking into, which can also solve any "I need a weapon to hand" and almost any weapon used as an implement has a better enchantment than pact blade. For a Genasi for instance you can pick up the ability to do fire or cold (or lightning/thunder) with the right weapon, and you don't actually need weapon proficiency with it, just implement proficiency.

EDIT: I don't think there's a viable way to use a rod as a weapon, no. Honestly I suspect there are better ways to get an effective OA, like playing with White Lotus anyway.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

OTOH getting a +1 to-hit is about a 5% DPR increase,

Hidden Sniper gets you Combat Advantage vs targets against whom you have concealment. That's +2, not +1.

I don't think there's a viable way to use a rod as a weapon, no.

Well, except the rods that explicitly say they can be- like the Ironscar Rod which can be used as a mace.

OOIC or Staff of Ruin are things that warlocks can have fun with, albeit they cost you a feat.

And if the feat in question is MC Wiz or Psion, you'll get a skill, a power, and proficiency with BOTH implements.

You can get DIS for instance...

What is that acronym?

And just to learn something myself- where is Ulban's Flare? I usually don't like taking a Feat enhancing only a single power, but...

 

[Xia Lin]

Ulban's Flare was first described in Dragon 381.

Thaks for all the suggestions.