Optimum CR spread in Monster Books.

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya!

Hiya mate!

I've just skimmed it (borrowed to peek at, I don't own it), and it's not really my cup of tea. There are lots of flavorful bits, sometimes overwhelming -- it's a setting book more than a monster book. There are bits on cosmology, culture, prestige classes, etc. For playing in the Iron Kingdoms, it's a must-have. In other setting, portability is hard, or require to ignore all the flavorful stuff, which is kinda sad.

The over-arching steampunk idea sounded interesting to me.

I havn't analyzed the stat blocks, but noticed errors or omitions sometime. Like, there are guidelines and sample to create creatures called dragonspawn, but nothing to tell you what size and CR they are. It seems it's "pick a size and guess the CR".

Some sample templated monsters are missing their CR, or the listed CR don't match the value it should have.

You'd think someone by now would come up with an iron clad way of determining Challenge Ratings.

My main peeve is, of course, discovering too late it contains a creature with the same name as one of my CC4 submissions. Argh!

LOL!

How many did you submit?

 

[Gez]

5. I had first intended for more, but havn't found the inspiration or energy to write all my ideas. In fact, my D&D mind is quite taken by an ambitious project of mine, and I was not really set in monster-mode. I would not be upset if none of them are accepted...

 

[Voadam]

Hello again mate!



I am sure there are a number of smaller generic monster supplements; but much fewre specific monster books.

Actually there are quite a few, depending on where you put the line, but yes, lots of generic ones.

Generic: MM, MMII, FF, SS, Monsters of Faerun, Kenzer's Dangerous Denizens. Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary, Minions Fearsome Foes, Liber Bestarius, Monsternomicon, Monster Handbook, GF Monsters, and generally world specific but still pretty generic, Creature Collection I & II, Monsters of Norrath, the new warcraft monster book.

Themed: Legions of Hell, Armies of the Abyss, Into the Green (debatable if you consider it a monster book and not an environ book with lots of monsters), Elemental Lore, Necromantic Lore, Draconic lore, (I think there are a few more FFG lore books), Slayer's guide to undead, Denizens of Dread (I do consider horror a specific subgenre of fantasy), The green ronin psionic monster book, the Malhavok psionic monster book, the book of templates, (there was another book of just horror templates but I can't remember the company or book title), the ravenloft undead book, Creatures of Rokugan (I consider oriental a specific theme), Green Ronin's oriental monster book and there are a couple water themed books coming out soon or out now and an underdark monster sourcebook.

No doubt to counterpoise things like animals and vermin which make up a large number of MM entries.



Have a look at the monsters by type at the start of the Fiend Folio.

I don't actually have either of these books, I was just going off the promotional material from WotC when they were previewing them with author interviews etc. Does the FF not have a lot of outsiders compared to the other two?

I have only limited experience of that book, but I don't see horror as a theme much divorced from fantasy monsters.




I always found it easy to generate high CR monster ideas.



Well you have to wonder why they didn't extend the elementals to Gargantuan and Colossal proportions; but instead curtailed the HD and growth of Greater and Elder Elementals to Huge size.



I don't necessarily agree with that if we are talking in terms of an appropriate CR spread.



Absolutely.

My point about elementals and your scale is that to get a CR19+ creature (high on your scale) it has to have a ton of hit dice and a ton of powers, or at least a lot of levels of spellcasting to boost its CR.

A pure brute monster without significant magic would have to be a really, really monstrous dinosaur type of thing. Conceptually this gets a little out there for anything except dragons and outsiders and major apocalypse beasts (such as doing the fenris wolf as a magical beast). For such beasts to be good monsters, I think they need a bit more background than they just are or just developed that way from other things, which can work for smaller scale critters. for instance, the Fenris wolf and Jormungandr are explained in part by being unique divine beings spawned by Loki.

Of course it could just be that since my DMing has never run to over 16+ level characters (and the high end was due to ECL instead of pure class levels) so when I look at a CR 16 critter it looks plenty high end as opposed to mid level a challenge to my eyes (although I have played in epic games I have never run one).

 

[Arnwyn]

So what do the rest of you think is the optimum breakdown? Are the Creature Collections stacked too much towards Low-level play? Do WotCs pair have too many High-level Monsters? How do the Monster books from other companies compare?

Yes, the Creature Collections (IMO) concentrate far too much on low-CR creatures. That's one of my biggest beef with the CCs, and I've discovered that as time goes on, the utility of those books are decreasing rather drastically for me. I know at this point I'll never be buying another one of the Creature Collections again.

I'd be happier with a higher percentage of monsters in the 12+ CR range, for sure. Maybe (as a previous poster noted), a solid 1% that are 19+, and maybe a good 30-40% that are CR 12-18. FF and MM2 were much closer to range of CRs that I prefer.

I certainly don't want any more than 1% that are fractional CRs, and no more than 10% that are CR 1-3.

But that's just me.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Gez mate!

5. I had first intended for more, but havn't found the inspiration or energy to write all my ideas. In fact, my D&D mind is quite taken by an ambitious project of mine, and I was not really set in monster-mode.

As ever I had too many ideas and not enough time to develop them to my satisfaction.

I settled on 10. Though if they all got chosen they would probably comprise the entire upper spectrum of CRs for the book.

I would not be upset if none of them are accepted...

Thats the wrong attitude mate - think positive! Five out of five, I will keep my fingers crossed for you dude!*

*Same for you Nightfall matey!

Hope you guys both get in even if I don't.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Voadam mate!

Actually there are quite a few, depending on where you put the line, but yes, lots of generic ones.

Generic: MM, MMII, FF, SS, Monsters of Faerun, Kenzer's Dangerous Denizens. Penumbra Fantasy Bestiary, Minions Fearsome Foes, Liber Bestarius, Monsternomicon, Monster Handbook, GF Monsters, and generally world specific but still pretty generic, Creature Collection I & II, Monsters of Norrath, the new warcraft monster book.

Themed: Legions of Hell, Armies of the Abyss, Into the Green (debatable if you consider it a monster book and not an environ book with lots of monsters), Elemental Lore, Necromantic Lore, Draconic lore, (I think there are a few more FFG lore books), Slayer's guide to undead, Denizens of Dread (I do consider horror a specific subgenre of fantasy), The green ronin psionic monster book, the Malhavok psionic monster book, the book of templates, (there was another book of just horror templates but I can't remember the company or book title), the ravenloft undead book, Creatures of Rokugan (I consider oriental a specific theme), Green Ronin's oriental monster book and there are a couple water themed books coming out soon or out now and an underdark monster sourcebook.

Good investigating mate!

Clearly the majority of large page count 'books' are generic. Whilst specific books are usually of the smaller page count variety.

I don't actually have either of these books, I was just going off the promotional material from WotC when they were previewing them with author interviews etc. Does the FF not have a lot of outsiders compared to the other two?

I think about one third of the book is comprised of Outsiders but I only had a brief scan. Its definately less than half though.

My point about elementals and your scale is that to get a CR19+ creature (high on your scale) it has to have a ton of hit dice and a ton of powers, or at least a lot of levels of spellcasting to boost its CR.

Not necessarily (although Elementals are 'meat and potato' monsters so they are not the best example).

You can easily create challenging monsters while retaining Hit Dice in the same region of the PC Level you want to challenge. I certainly don't think you have to go bonkers with Hit Dice, except at epic levels and even then its mostly dependant on creature type.

A pure brute monster without significant magic would have to be a really, really monstrous dinosaur type of thing. Conceptually this gets a little out there for anything except dragons and outsiders and major apocalypse beasts (such as doing the fenris wolf as a magical beast). For such beasts to be good monsters, I think they need a bit more background than they just are or just developed that way from other things, which can work for smaller scale critters. for instance, the Fenris wolf and Jormungandr are explained in part by being unique divine beings spawned by Loki.

Remember of course that PCs have special abilities (ie. Class Features) and (very likely) magical equipment. So you can't snot allow monsters to gain special abilities.

Of course it could just be that since my DMing has never run to over 16+ level characters (and the high end was due to ECL instead of pure class levels) so when I look at a CR 16 critter it looks plenty high end as opposed to mid level a challenge to my eyes (although I have played in epic games I have never run one).

I am the opposite, I look at something like a Balor and wonder how many of these I need to fight to get some worthwhile EXP.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey arnwyn!

Yes, the Creature Collections (IMO) concentrate far too much on low-CR creatures.

I knew I couldn't be the only one who thought that!

That's one of my biggest beef with the CCs, and I've discovered that as time goes on, the utility of those books are decreasing rather drastically for me.

I think thats the same thing that happened to my friends campaign. His PCs have reached 11th-level and now (with regards the Creature Collections) the cupboard is bare.

I know at this point I'll never be buying another one of the Creature Collections again.

Hey never say never dude!

I am sure S&SS would be willing to listen to fan feedback and maybe give future books a better spread of Mid/High-level types (I know I always try and do my bit from the inside*). I mean surely it makes sense given that the people who started with the Creature Collection 1 can't all still be playing Low-level campaigns!?

*

I'd be happier with a higher percentage of monsters in the 12+ CR range, for sure. Maybe (as a previous poster noted), a solid 1% that are 19+, and maybe a good 30-40% that are CR 12-18. FF and MM2 were much closer to range of CRs that I prefer.

I certainly don't want any more than 1% that are fractional CRs, and no more than 10% that are CR 1-3.

But that's just me.

No its not just you - its me too!

 

[Voadam]

Hey Voadam mate!



Good investigating mate!

Clearly the majority of large page count 'books' are generic. Whilst specific books are usually of the smaller page count variety.

No investigation. That was off the top of my head and I forgot to throw in a bunch such as MEG's Nightmares and Dreams I & II, the d20 modern menace manual, the darwins world monster book and I'm sure there are others (there's a Yojimbo d20 book of monsters right?).

Anyway, we'll see how the CCIII turns out, too bad it got pushed back to December, which probably means author's copies in March or so

Oh and UK I know you were working on an Immortal Handbook for when DDG got released into the SRD, will that include epic monsters or is that a separate volume for you?

 

[Pants]

Hi Pants matey!

Heya

Notably less than 50%.

Surprise, surprise.
It always seemed to me that every other creature in the book had the Extraplanar subtype attached to it.

I think if we were to subtract the necessity that is the Animals and Vermin from the spread, and as you mention, included a few more high CR or perhaps epic encounters that it would indeed be perfect.

Actually, I hadn't even taken Vermin and Animals into account.

For high CR critters, I'd actually like to see more nonoutsiders and nondragons. Cool, high CR Vermin would be great, but as the Century Worm and the Lucent Worm show, they're hard to do properly.

 

[Nightfall]

Hi Nightfall mate!

Hey mate!

10 Submissions. I would have prefered sending more but these are pretty tight. What about yourself?

So far zippo...but I'm working on getting that fixed within the next four hours. But good luck!