D&D 5E Options past 3rd level

[Vael]

I'm happy with the current configuration, but I do keep noodling around with the idea of adding another pillar to characters around 5th level. Something like 4e themes, purely an add-on that gives a bit more customization and player character enhancement.

 

[cbwjm]

Yep. I think the 5e warlock is about perfect in terms of customizability and user-friendliness. Of course, I understand that it is too many decision points for some players, so I think it’s good to have simpler options you can just pick once and forget about. But just like it wouldn’t be very satisfying for those players to only have one option for a simple class, it is not very satisfying for me and many others to have the warlock as the only class with what feels like a meaningful degree of customizability.

There are definitely times where simple is best, having additional switches so that you can go between them as needed would be a nice addition to the game, even just a little more choice as your character grows would be nice.

 

[MatthewJHanson]

People like a range of customization for their PCs.

I think because of this, WOTC included a range of how customizable characters could be. Some of this is with optional rules (feats), but some is also tied to class. The difficulty is that the classes with more choice are pretty much all caster classes, leaving those who want lots of choices but a purely martial class with out a perfect option.

 

[Eric V]

I turned my attention to it when they announced PF2. Followed its development pretty closely. Then in turned out it was still a cumbersome, fiddly, user-unfriendly system. Is a game with streamlined math and interesting character build options really so much to ask??

13th Age, waving from the corner of the bar...

 

[Tallifer]

DMs just need to have more confidence in themselves and realize they are more than capable of creating/giving out new abilities to their players while simultaneously balancing them against each other and the enemies they will put up against them. They need to stop relying and waiting on WotC to do all the heavy lifting for them if they have things they feel their game needs.

Figure out and learn how D&D balanced design works, see what other people have done in their own created game mechanics, and then make what you want for your players to be able to take. WotC is never going to be able to give you exactly what you feel you need... so don't sit on your hands waiting for it. Make it yourself and start playtesting it with your players right now.

I think the issue is organized play. Until I played 4E with the Living Guild on roll20/discord, I never understood the need many dungeon masters and players have for fixed rules. Now with more and more games being started on-line between hitherto strangers, I suspect the desire for readily agreed books and rules will increase.

 

[Tallifer]

You know what I don't see? 'Gee, I wish 5e was more like 4th.'

That would be me. I switched to 5E for the sake of my players, but switched back after a few years. Now I play a little 5E but mostly 4E and seeing the flaws in old 4E, wish 5E was just 4.5

(The players in my 4E game still prefer OSR or 5E, but I have maintained their loyalty despite that. I certainly concede that 5E has the broadest appeal.)

 

[Oofta]

Well, yes. 4th did a lot of things right, and 5e sacrificed a lot of great design ideas at the altar of appeasement.

Given the relative popularity and growth patterns of 4th and 5th edition, I believe 5E has accomplished something 4E never did. Some of the concepts of 4E were ported over, others were not. If by "altar of appeasement" you mean "had more positive responses from the play test where they solicited feedback from thousands of players" then I guess you're correct.

 

[Raith5]

For me the customization of my character is important to my enjoyment of the game and one of the main reason that D&D differs from a game like chess.

While I dont see 4e level of customization as possible or desirable, a few more decision points at mid to high levels would be a good thing in my view. I think there is a wide space between the often overwhelming nature of 4e's choices and 5e's prepackaged choices.

I agree with Charlaquin that the warlock is a good model that balances this with plenty of design choices in the form of invocations. There are plenty of choices and there are prerequisites for some of them, so there the some balancing of these powers. Sure some choices feel a bit like a feat tax but the model works well in offering flavor and customisation.

 

[Charlaquin]

13th Age, waving from the corner of the bar...

I like 13th Age ok, but it doesn’t quite capture the feeling of D&D for me. It is certainly in the neighborhood of where I’d like customizability and complexity though.

 

[Charlaquin]

Given the relative popularity and growth patterns of 4th and 5th edition, I believe 5E has accomplished something 4E never did.

It absolutely has, and with good reason. I even prefer it over 4e, and I was an enormous fan of 4e. But I think it would be a mistake to assume that its success relative to 4e is due solely to the design ideas from 4e that it didn’t include, or that it couldn’t have been even more successful had it included more of them.

Some of the concepts of 4E were ported over, others were not.

Very, very little was ported over from 4e, and most of what was ported over has been majorly flanderized from its original design purpose, and/or poorly disguised to obfuscate the 4e influence.

If by "altar of appeasement" you mean "had more positive responses from the play test where they solicited feedback from thousands of players" then I guess you're correct.

The thing is, the players surveyed at the time are no longer representative of the 5e player base, thanks to the afformentioned growth patterns. There are a lot of design decisions that were made at the time because lapsed players from past editions made up a significant voting block (possibly the most significant voting block) that are far less popular with the current fan base which is made predominantly of new players, that WotC has been trying to address without invalidating any existing material. Moreover, popularity is not always a strong indication of quality. I think embracing more of the things 4e did well would have resulted in an overall higher quality game, which would still be as successful, if not more successful today.