Orbs vs. Evocations II- with level by level data

[TYPO5478]

Unfortunately, no good specific evocation spell exists. Fireball/Lightning bolt are 3rd level and have a 10d6 damage cap. Cone of Cold is 5th level.
Explosive cascade is 4th level, but has a 10d6 damage cap.

Did you forget about chain lightning, delayed blast fireball, and prismatic spray? Those are all "good" evocation spells (that will deal more damage than orbs).

 

[IanB]

Did you forget about chain lightning, delayed blast fireball, and prismatic spray? Those are all "good" evocation spells (that will deal more damage than orbs).

I think the idea would be to compare spells of equal level.

 

[Deset Gled]

Color me impressed.

I would have expected the ratio to be much closer to 1.5 to 1.75 in favor of the orbs. A 2.76 ratio at level 16 with the bonus chance for a secondary effect? That is whack. With this analysis, I'm considering changing my stance from "unbalanced" to "broken".

 

[IanB]

Color me impressed.

I would have expected the ratio to be much closer to 1.5 to 1.75 in favor of the orbs. A 2.76 ratio at level 16 with the bonus chance for a secondary effect? That is whack. With this analysis, I'm considering changing my stance from "unbalanced" to "broken".

Important thing to note. Here is the list of SRD monsters that are CR 16:

Angel, Planetar
Archon, Hound Hero
Black Dragon, Old
Blue Dragon, Mature adult
Copper Dragon, Mature adult
Devil, Horned
Gold Dragon, Adult
Golem, Greater Stone
Green Dragon, Mature adult
Nightshade, Nightwalker

That's it. So remember when looking at these numbers, what you're seeing isn't necessarily representative of what players are going to be constantly fighting at these levels. There are no humanoid NPCs, several good-aligned monsters, and note that fully half of all the creatures are dragons, which will skew the average to dragon-like stats. I don't know about your game, but for mine, classed humanoids, with all the class abilities and buffs and such that come along with them, tend to be the single most common type of opponent at all levels. Evil outsiders, who come with their own set of resistances, immunities, buffs, etc., are easily #2 at these higher levels. For other games, maybe you're fighting flights of dragons all the time, and these numbers will be more helpful.

 

[Slaved]

I am guessing that a single target effect should be about twice as effective as a large area effect by d&d math.

Mostly I am thinking about whirlwind attack though. Full attack a single opponent for 2+ attacks or whirlwind several foes each hitting for a single attacks worth of damage.

I guess that would mean that single target versus area effect at 1 target the single target should be better, against 2 they should be pretty equal, and for 3+ the area effect should be better.

Does that sound about right?

 

[Rystil Arden]

Important thing to note. Here is the list of SRD monsters that are CR 16:

Angel, Planetar
Archon, Hound Hero
Black Dragon, Old
Blue Dragon, Mature adult
Copper Dragon, Mature adult
Devil, Horned
Gold Dragon, Adult
Golem, Greater Stone
Green Dragon, Mature adult
Nightshade, Nightwalker

Indeed. However, another important thing to note is that you put a level 16 Wizard against a CR 16 enemy. In all likelihood, she'll be fighting CR higher than 16 enemies more than CR lower than 16 enemies (at least when she cares), since she's with a group. This will favour the orbs even more, since Evocations allow protections that scale with CR and Orbs do not. Try the level 12 Wizards of both stripes against the CR 16 monsters (assuming a level 12 party together might face a CR 16 monster as a BBEG) and watch the Conjurer obliterate the Evoker beyond belief

 

[TYPO5478]

I think the idea would be to compare spells of equal level.

So Heighten the Orbs.

 

[Rystil Arden]

Did you forget about chain lightning, delayed blast fireball, and prismatic spray? Those are all "good" evocation spells (that will deal more damage than orbs).

You are incorrect for the level in question, as CL and DBF have not reached their cap, and Prismatic Spray is a goofy spell that doesn't do consistent direct damage. In fact, at the level in question, the metamagicked Fireball does more than CL and DBF

 

[shmoo2]

Important thing to note. Here is the list of SRD monsters that are CR 16:

Angel, Planetar
Archon, Hound Hero
Black Dragon, Old
Blue Dragon, Mature adult
Copper Dragon, Mature adult
Devil, Horned
Gold Dragon, Adult
Golem, Greater Stone
Green Dragon, Mature adult
Nightshade, Nightwalker

That's it. So remember when looking at these numbers, what you're seeing isn't necessarily representative of what players are going to be constantly fighting at these levels. There are no humanoid NPCs, several good-aligned monsters, and note that fully half of all the creatures are dragons, which will skew the average to dragon-like stats. I don't know about your game, but for mine, classed humanoids, with all the class abilities and buffs and such that come along with them, tend to be the single most common type of opponent at all levels. Evil outsiders, who come with their own set of resistances, immunities, buffs, etc., are easily #2 at these higher levels. For other games, maybe you're fighting flights of dragons all the time, and these numbers will be more helpful.

That's a cogent point. But notice that at those upper CR's the ratio for the dragons is better for the evoker than most of the other monsters. That is, the dragons are dragging the numbers down at levels 15 and 16! (That's because they have relatively poor SR for their CR)

e.g. The ratios for your '#2 opponent' high level evil outsiders in the spreadsheet:
monster CR ratio
Herzou Demon 11 2.46
Demon, Retriever 11 1.13
Barbed Devil 11 2.49
Demon, Glabrezu 13 2.29
Devil, Gelugon 13 3.08
Nalfeshnee Demon 14 2.36
Cornugon Devil 16 3.94
Average 2.54

They average size Large, so its not trivial to fit 3 of them in an AofE even if they conveniently line up for the evoker.

NPCs would be more difficult to consider because of spells and Evasion. Especially because the opponents with high touch ACs (monks, rogues) will also have evasion and good reflex saves.

But unless high level NPC typically have good SR, evocations will be more useful against them than high level monsters, I'd bet.

 

[James McMurray]

Jump in damage (for both orbs and evocations) at level 15 is due to using an 8th level slot and applying Energy Admixture.

Evocation drops (and is lower than the orbs) because of SR- note that average SR for CR 15 monsters is 18.7, but rises to 25.1 at CR 16.

Unfortunately, no good specific evocation spell exists. Fireball/Lightning bolt are 3rd level and have a 10d6 damage cap. Cone of Cold is 5th level.
Explosive cascade is 4th level, but has a 10d6 damage cap.

Is the 16th level wizzard using an admixtured Explosive Cascade?