D&D 5E OrcPub is Closing Down

[Parmandur]

But where can I buy their Star Wars RPG in PDF?

The point being that there are many reasons not to do so. FFG doesn’t for one reason, WotC doesn’t for another. Piracy is not either reason.

Precisely, I agree: they both have their reasons, I'm sure, and I doubt it is either piracy or hatred of the fanbase for either company.

Does FFG have their Star Wars material available from FG or Roll20?

 

[Morrus]

Precisely, I agree: they both have their reasons, I'm sure, and I doubt it is either piracy or hatred of the fanbase for either company.

Does FFG have their Star Wars material available from FG or Roll20?

Nope. FFG’s Star Wars license prohibits electronic products. It’s an odd situation, because it was a license drafted to exclude video games, but PDFs and the like count.

 

[Parmandur]

Nope. FFG’s Star Wars license prohibits electronic products. It’s an odd situation, because it was a license drafted to exclude video games, but PDFs and the like count.

You've been working the beat a long while: any thoughts on WotC's reasons?

 

[Morrus]

You've been working the beat a long while: anuly thoughts on WotC's reasons?

I’ve posted them in this very thread!

 

[Parmandur]

I’ve posted them in this very thread!

My apologies, but going through the thread again I didn't see that? I'm sure you've gone over them as naseum elsewhere.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

There are so many opinions here about why WoTC should do one thing or another. They are a subsidiary of Hasbro and D&D is a rounding error for WoTC (MtG drives their revenue and profit). They have released different versions of their rules in digital formats for years (and you can buy previous editions in PDF forum). A trivial search for the previous versions will find plenty of pirate options and most of the previous editions have clones built via the OGL rules that they released.

The team that does D&D lost most of their staff, and they threw a Hail Mary pass of an open sourced play test for a new edition and then changed their old business practice of flooding the market with new rules a very measured release. They have exceeded all expectations and have enough of a hit in their hands that they were actually mentioned in a Hasbro earnings call.

One thing that they did change this time around was strict rules on digital releases which does result in pirating and which they have messed up before, over and over again. They are slowly experimenting. They finally licensed a VTT (Fantasy Grounds broke that open). They allowed D&D Beyond and they significantly reduced the digital MSRP for the VTT option (again, Fantasy Gounds owners advocated for lower prices would turn into even more sales).

I am pretty happy with their brand management so far and I know they have more data on what happens with PDF sales than I do.

As I said earlier, OrcPub moved from the OGL SRD to offer the custom rules that 5e reserves for their product and only allows inside of the DMs Guild. They did it without permission. Because of the weak copyright rules on game mechanics, OrcPub may be right that their rewrite and use of playtest materials would have passsed, but they do not have the legal resources to fight.

Personally, I approve of what WoTC did as they are making the best choices they can to protect their business and their brand while allowing it to be used via the OGL and not fighting in court. The number one reason that people have given to use OrcPub over DND Beyond is that it was cheaper to get the full content there. The better implementation and UI was not the reason as only the SRD was not enough.

I have the hardcovers, the FG version and I paid for DND Beyond as well so I can do development work when I travel without carrying around the books. So I have paid three times, but I got a different version and options each time.

Personally, I think they should make a .mobi and ePub version and sell it for kindle and other digital book readers, but not do a pdf as PDFs are too easy to pirate and they do enough volume to justify hardcovers. I also believe that OrcPub brought this upon themselves (really just himself) by going too far past the SRD/OGL to make money and into areas that other companies had paid WoTC for. His best option would have been to allow you to enter the info yourself (FG allows that) and you pay for the functionality.

 

[Nathan McTague]

But i saw new posts that were on a positive note implying he wasn't canceling it.

 

[Ovinomancer]

Obviously I have strong feelings about this, but, let's look at this another way. How much money would WotC gain by having a "fair" price, which, just so we are very clear, charging me even remotely the same price for a version that once produced, is free for you to make infinite copies of, should not be valued anywhere near what the nicely done hardback books regularly sell at, which is around 33$.

WotC isn't charging you anything for DDB, Curse is. Curse has to pay WotC whatever amount their licensing fee is, and that may be per sale or per some other metric, but it's not the purchase price. Curse sets the price to cover the amount of work they're doing establishing their database and coding their tools and providing server bandwidth PLUS the license fee. WotC doesn't actually ever sell you a book, either -- you've never bought a book from WotC. They sell to distributors, who sell to storefronts, who sell to you, and at each point is a markup. Amazon cuts out the middleman and deals in huge volumes so they can cut their profit margin to razor thinness, and that's the only place you pick up near $30 prices on books. Most places sell them at MSRP which is $50. Trying to complain than DDB is selling their forever access for the same discount as the biggest, most aggressive bookseller in the world is entirely misplaced -- either way you're getting $20 off the book price.

The insistence that the only cost for DDB is what WotC charges for the IP plus a tiny distribution fee is just weird given how amazingly wrong it is.

Now, weigh the difference between 9.99 for the PHB only character editor, sell the expansions for each book somewhere between 1.99 and 9.99 on the editor, that describes the options, but not the mechanics, so you still need the books in question. And compare it to the 30$ that WotC is selling each digital copy for for a net loss of 20$ per sale. While this is all true, the other side of it, is that the thing, once made, costs negligible amounts to distribute, and how many more people will buy everything., like myself at that "fair" price. Compared to how much indemnity they are creating by removing that option, which is right and good, but than not supplanting it with a comparable product. Not to mention, the added benefit of making it intrinsically easier to introduce new players., increasing your customer base.

Here's the thing, you can get access to SRD material for free on DDB. Plus, for free, you can create and share homebrew material. You can make everything you could want yourself for free using DDB. If you want the PHB or other books already there for you (the cost of which Curse is using to subsidize the free access costs of development, maintenance, and hosting, and pay licensing fees -- all non-trivial costs you don't have to pay if you don't want to), you can buy them. Since you've already bought them, you can just add the material you want to your free version of DDB.

Imagine how fair 'free' is as a price.

 

[Rellott]

But i saw new posts that were on a positive note implying he wasn't canceling it.

Indeed. This thread has been around for a while. He has since reconsidered his options and is trying to find ways to serve the public that do not invoke legal consequences. He has created “create your own” or “home brew entry” options to let users input whatever versions they want of classes, backgrounds, feats, etc. It is still a work in progress, but he seems hopeful in his Facebook and Kickstarter updates.

 

[Severite]

WotC isn't charging you anything for DDB, Curse is. Curse has to pay WotC whatever amount their licensing fee is, and that may be per sale or per some other metric, but it's not the purchase price. Curse sets the price to cover the amount of work they're doing establishing their database and coding their tools and providing server bandwidth PLUS the license fee. WotC doesn't actually ever sell you a book, either -- you've never bought a book from WotC. They sell to distributors, who sell to storefronts, who sell to you, and at each point is a markup. Amazon cuts out the middleman and deals in huge volumes so they can cut their profit margin to razor thinness, and that's the only place you pick up near $30 prices on books. Most places sell them at MSRP which is $50. Trying to complain than DDB is selling their forever access for the same discount as the biggest, most aggressive bookseller in the world is entirely misplaced -- either way you're getting $20 off the book price.

The insistence that the only cost for DDB is what WotC charges for the IP plus a tiny distribution fee is just weird given how amazingly wrong it is.


Here's the thing, you can get access to SRD material for free on DDB. Plus, for free, you can create and share homebrew material. You can make everything you could want yourself for free using DDB. If you want the PHB or other books already there for you (the cost of which Curse is using to subsidize the free access costs of development, maintenance, and hosting, and pay licensing fees -- all non-trivial costs you don't have to pay if you don't want to), you can buy them. Since you've already bought them, you can just add the material you want to your free version of DDB.

Imagine how fair 'free' is as a price.

All interesting points, to be sure. I was actually looking at the "homebrew" option, and had come up with my own conclusions, which are interesting to say the least. That said, I must admit to not liking the UI for DDB either. All of that said, I personally think the price point is wrong, and I will not be paying for the digital version at that price point. I stand by my assertions on value, and will even state, that the forever availability lasts for as long as the company does. I have several computer games that I bought digitally, that were touted in much the same way, that are gone forever, not that it matters much in the great scheme of things, and no guarantee that the same fate will befall Curse, just something to keep in mind. I recognize that many people are perfectly happy buying the content again/on this format at that price point, and that's all well and good. I do not pay printed msrp for pdfs, and their format is even less versatile than that. Of course, my outlook is coloured by my complete disinterest in campaign tools as a whole, I "just" want an easy to use character creator. No matter, I will recant my statements to the effect that the price is inflammatory, as it may very well coincide with their costs, and merely conclude that their price points are too dear for my tastes, for what I will be getting g out of them, and will repeat the personal belief, that barring excessive licensing fees from WotC, which is absolutely in Witch's control, that they would gain a great many more sales if they used the price points for their character editor that I espoused earlier in the thread. Mayhap, with differentiating their products, they may be able to get more return for their investment. It really comes down to, how many people will also take up the stance I hold? If I am in the minority, then my opinion is negligible, if I am not, than how much would they stand to gain? As we have no access to sale numbers vs those who try the "free" version, the world may never know.