Orcus [Ghostwalk]

[Alzrius]

Thought it was two. I mean the Necromancer one IS bloated too. Is he really THAT different from the ToH version?

Ghostwalk Orcus (bloated, god).

Tome of Horrors Orcus (bloated, demon prince) (other Necromancer Games products have this Orcus with an avatar, despite his not being a god).

Dungeon issue 89 Orcus (bloated, demon prince) (different stats from ToH & BoVD Orcus, IIRC).

Book of Vile Darkness Orcus (buff, demon prince).

Forgotten Realms Orcus (god, no stats given).

Gotta love it...

 

[Nightfall]

Avatar or not I thought the ToH version was just an example of Orcus in the Material Plane. In any case I didn't care for the Dungeon issue and I pretty much dismissed that one out right. Btw Al, you already saw what happened with the FR Orcus...cause someone still won't believe Orcus is alive...or exists in FR. So I wish you luck trying to prove you're correct.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

ok, got a chance to take a look at ghostwalk today... well, that orcus is distinctly different than the BoVD one (can anyone say "bloated"?), so now we have no less than three versions of orcus running around...

It sort of reminds me of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion cycle. It seems that in his multiverse, gods (like, say, Arioch) differ from plane to plane. Either there are parallel universe versions of them, or they have different aspects in different planes. The same can go for Orcus.

 

[Alzrius]

Avatar or not I thought the ToH version was just an example of Orcus in the Material Plane.

In relation to the Necromancer Games "avatar" of the non-divine Orcus, perhaps, but nothing says that, save that the publishers are the same.

In any case I didn't care for the Dungeon issue and I pretty much dismissed that one out right.

At the time, I was ecstatic over it. It was the first 3E printing with stats for Orcus after all.

Btw Al, you already saw what happened with the FR Orcus...cause someone still won't believe Orcus is alive...or exists in FR. So I wish you luck trying to prove you're correct.

Last I checked, I had put that guy in his place over on the FR boards. I'll go check again in case he's tried to rebut my rebuttals.

Originally posted by ColonelHardisson
It sort of reminds me of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion cycle. It seems that in his multiverse, gods (like, say, Arioch) differ from plane to plane. Either there are parallel universe versions of them, or they have different aspects in different planes. The same can go for Orcus.

Actually, that can't go for Orcus (canonically speaking), since that principle doesn't apply to the D&D multiverse.

 

[Nightfall]

Al,

Firstly that may have been the first Official version, but it wasn't the one I liked best at the time. (Scott Greene's was better I felt)
Secondly, saw your rebuttals. Thanks. Thirdly, no comment on the Coln's view other than I kind of agree with it...but not entirely.

 

[Alzrius]

Al,

Firstly that may have been the first Official version, but it wasn't the one I liked best at the time. (Scott Greene's was better I felt)

*shrugs* I try to stay away from "better" classifications. In things like this, I work objectively.

Secondly, saw your rebuttals. Thanks.

Always a pleasure.

Thirdly, no comment on the Coln's view other than I kind of agree with it...but not entirely.

I can understand where he's coming from. Having so many different versions of the same person can be maddening, and using the old "Eternal Champion" theory is a quick and easy way to resolve it. However, this isn't a Moorcock issue, so I feel that, for a canon answer, that can't be used here.

 

[Azul]

It sort of reminds me of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion cycle. It seems that in his multiverse, gods (like, say, Arioch) differ from plane to plane. Either there are parallel universe versions of them, or they have different aspects in different planes. The same can go for Orcus.

Same gods but they differ wildly by "plane" (not quite sure what Moorcock calls them again). Arioch is one of the big boys in Elric's universe (hell, he's Elric's patron deity) but he's a minor godling in Corum's world (pretty much the first one Corum bumps off, IIRC). Elric and Corum have a brief discussion regarding Arioch in one of the stories where they meet, IIRC, and they confuse each other.

It seems like in the Eternal Champion cycle, the lords of law and chaos (along with the city of Tanelorn, which represents the Balance) are eternal, but their individual power in any given world varies from world to world. Arioch seems to tend to be fairly strong, as does Xiombarg. The lords of law get less press (at least in the Moorcock books I've read - Elric, Corum, von Bek, Bastable and the ice age hero with the bear-pulled sled (can't remember his name)... dunno about Hawkmoon or Aubec or other incarnations of the EC).

 

[Nightfall]

*shrugs* I try to stay away from "better" classifications. In things like this, I work objectively.

Alright maybe I shouldn't use the word better as much as "preferred" or "enjoyed". Not objective I'll grant you but that's again a personal thing.

I can understand where he's coming from. Having so many different versions of the same person can be maddening, and using the old "Eternal Champion" theory is a quick and easy way to resolve it. However, this isn't a Moorcock issue, so I feel that, for a canon answer, that can't be used here.

And I understand that but again this is where you and I differ but not in a radical sense I feel as compared to someone else you and I had an Orcus discussion with.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Actually, that can't go for Orcus (canonically speaking), since that principle doesn't apply to the D&D multiverse.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean. It was more an offhand comment than anything else; I mean, the argument about official/unofficial Orcus stats seems silly to me. Each and every D&D campaign is, in effect, its own separate and discrete universe (that's the main gist of my Moorcock reference; think of it as more along the lines of the infinite possibilities suggested by the theories of parallel universes - see herehttp://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000F1EDD-B48A-1E90-8EA5809EC5880000&pageNumber=1&catID=2 ), even if any given campaign uses the same basic background as another. Assuming that each and every interpretation of any given thing in a given setting is interpreted differently in each campaign, the importance of official/unofficial stats becomes kind of pointless, if you see what I'm getting at. Toss in the fact that D&D and d20 are not quite the same thing, and you can see that it gets even more complicated - there are a couple of "official" sets of stats for Orcus, from WotC, and at least one set for the d20 "universe" or "multiverse," from the ToH. Seeing as only the OGC Orcus from ToH can be freely used (relatively speaking) by other d20 publishers (unless they make their own stats), one could look at the ToH Orcus as the "official" d20 Orcus.



Or maybe we're overthinking it

 

[Nightfall]

Maybe but I don't necessarily disagree with that thought there Coln.