Order of the Bow Nerfed?

[Terramotus]

I've been looking at the new Order of the Bow Initiate from the Complete Warrior, and I'm having difficulty finding a reason to take the class beyond level 2, for the Close Combat Shot. The chief change lies in the change of the Ranged Sneak Attack ability for the Ranged Precision ability.

It now grants an extra 1d8 points of damage per odd numbered level to a single attack used as a standard action. The target no longer has to be flat footed or have lost his dex bonus to AC, but the target cannot be immune to critical hits. By my reading of this ability, an archer wouldn't be able to combine Manyshot with this one, not to have multiple instances of the ability, but just to get off an extra unmodified shot.

Given this, I'm having difficulty finding a point in time where I'd want to use this ability. It might be nice against something with high DR that I can't beat, but using the Manyshot feat I can generally beat it out damage-wise.

Given this, if I take this class past 2nd level, I get Greater Weapon Focus and I save a feat I would have spent on manyshot. Compare that to the Ranger where I'd get more skill points, better class abilities, more spells, and a bonus archery feat. If it still had the Zen Archery ability allowing you to add wisdom to dex for attacks it might be worth it, but from my point of view this class is now subpar vs either a fighter or a ranger build after 2nd level. Is there something I'm missing?

 

[jgsugden]

I don't have a CW with me, but as I recall, OotBI doesn't force a penalty on to hit rolls like Manyshot does.

Depending upon the AC of a foe, your various bonuses to damage and a few other issues, the value of the manyshot feat vs the value of the OotBI ability can be far apart. In some situations, Manyshot is far superior. In some situations, OotBI is a far better option. The best situation, by far, is to be able to choose between the two options in a given situation.

For instance, a character with 10 levels of OotBI that has a total AB of 32 and damage of (d8 + d6 fire + 15) damage with a bow that is facing a creature with an AC of 44 would be *far* better off using the OotBI than using Manyshot for 4 arrows at -8 to hit. Using Manyshot, the expected damage is about 4.5 per round. Using the OotBI ability (+5d8), the expected damage rises to about 20. That ends up being very close to the expected damage from a full attack from the same character with rapid shot, though you also get the move action.

In other words: Everything has a time and place. If your DM throws creatures with low ACs and many hit points, OotBI might not be optimal for you. If he throws things with high ACs at you, OotBI might be pretty nice.

 

[Spatula]

Given this, I'm having difficulty finding a point in time where I'd want to use this ability. It might be nice against something with high DR that I can't beat, but using the Manyshot feat I can generally beat it out damage-wise.

Wouldn't each arrow from Manyshot go up against the target's DR individually? Or am I missing your point?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Wouldn't each arrow from Manyshot go up against the target's DR individually? Or am I missing your point?

You're making the same point he is.

The sentence is just confusing, because he talks about beating DR, and then about Manyshot beating "it" - meaning the OotBI class ability, not DR.

-Hyp.

 

[hong]

Wouldn't each arrow from Manyshot go up against the target's DR individually? Or am I missing your point?

You're missing his point. Against things with high DR, the OotBI is good. Otherwise, Manyshot generally works out as good, if not better.

The nice thing about the change is that at least the OotBI is now more than just a pumped-up machine-gun bunny. The original was powerful, but it didn't really have a reason for being. That said, I still prefer my version of the Zen archer.

 

[Enkhidu]

That said, I still prefer my version of the Zen archer.

I'm preferring your version of the Zen archer right now, IYKWIMAI.. oh skip it.

 

[Spatula]

You're making the same point he is.

The sentence is just confusing, because he talks about beating DR, and then about Manyshot beating "it" - meaning the OotBI class ability, not DR.

Thanks - it did read to me that he was saying Manyshot could be used to beat DR.