Origins of the d20 system?

[DungeonmasterCal]

In a Dragon Mag from sometime in 97 or so, Peter Adkison, in an editorial, wrote about the house rules they used in their D&D games. It was the d20 system, only a little different than version we use now.

I also saw the roots of 3e was in Chris Pramas' "Dragon Fist" martial arts game. Armor Class increased instead of decreased numerically, and skill checks were achieved by rolling a d20 and applying bonuses to reach the "Target Numbers" (a term I STILL like better than DC).

Both of these were during the waning days of 2e, but I remember thinking then "How is it that it took so long to come up with this?? This makes perfect sense!!!"

*awaits the flames*

 

[talfan68]

Talislanta

I wasn't trying to infer that D&D "ripped off" any system. I was just asking for opinions on the evolution of things. Back to my Talislanta point, I know Tweet was lead designer on the 3rd edition of Talislanta. Talsilanta has always been d20 based and had the equivalent to to the way 3E handles combat and skill checks, etc.

I just think it would be natural for a designer to carry forward key concepts from one game they work on into another.

I must admit I'm not familiar with Ars Magica so can't comment on its influence but I really don't see 3E being an evolution of Rolemaster or Warhammer by any means. There may be similaritlies but I;m talking about true evolution of a system or mechanic.

If I remember correctly, wasn't Talislanta WOTC's first foray into the RPG market?

 

[jester47]

d20 is an amalgamation of many ideas that had developed in tabletop role playing games. Many ideas kept getting reused. From skill systems to the prestige class. When I discovered these I thought more of Twilight 2000 and Wizardry than I did Talislanta and Ars Magica, or even Rolemaster. There wasn't one source for the skill system, or one for the feat system, or prestige class system. There were many influences for each because all of these elements were good ideas. And that is why d20 is such a powerful system and why it is so popular- it uses and unifies concepts that have been in role playing for 20 years or more. But d20 goes beyond simple unification. If thats all of what people were looking for, GURPS would be the generic game today. Rather, d20 is modular. If you don't like a bit, you can cut it out or replace it with somthing different with very little impact to the rest of the game. We have seen how well this works with D20 Modern and StarWars. And if there is impact the further changes that are needed are fairly intuitive. Then there is the license that allows people to share their ideas. This combination give d20 2 more legs that most other systems don't have.

Aaron

 

[Tav_Behemoth]

On his website, Jonathan Tweet writes: "If you want to see where the core system for the current edition of D&D comes from, pick up Ars Magica." Link is here.

There are actually many great reasons to pick up Ars Magica, one of which is that you can get the 4th edition as a free PDF!

Now, if you want to see where the core magic system of D&D originally comes from, pick up Jack Vance's The Dying Earth.

 

[Dinkeldog]

When I first read 3e I though "Role Master Lite". Finally people will play with me again!!!

I used to have major gaming session of Rolemaster, which isn't any such problem once you get the hang of it. Combats were shorter than some of the ones in 3e.

The most telling inspiration comes in the skills. Looking at the skill system for Rolemaster and comparing it to the limited ranks/class-cross class skill system, I see alot of influence. Not to say this is the only place where it happened of course.

Dustin

I don't see the resemblance over much. For one, every class skill in D&D costs 1 skill point and you can only get one/level once you're maxed out, but any number (up to your skill point / level) for ones that aren't maxed yet.

It resembles Earthdawn more to me on the skill system, save, of course, that you don't spend your experience on skill points and basically action points (karma).

 

[Twowolves]

Armor Class counting up from 10, ditching THAC0 and instead having attack bonuses pile up, saves directly linked to distinct stats, all of these were first seen in Gamma World 4th ed. Frankly, I still think that game handles poison and diseases better than 3rd ed D&D. LOTS of mechanical nuggets in 3rd ed were first seen in Gamma World.

As for PrC's, the ancient computer game "Wizardry" had classes you could only enter when you had met certain requirements, most of which they didn't bother to tell you what were, including a minimum number of levels in certain classes. Bishop, Archmage, Ninja, Samurai, Lord, all were early precursors to "Prestige Classes".

Similarly, the idea for feats had to come straight out of "Fallout".

 

[diaglo]

In thinking about descent, it is also important to realize that in this field it is pretty easy to come upon convergent evolution. Just because a mechanic from 3e resembles a mechanic in another game does not imply direct influence.

i like your choice of words.

d02 is descent. descent: a step downward in a scale of gradation from a higher form... a descending way (as a downgrade). an inclination downward

and like most forms of mutation that are of lesser quality they prove fatal.

 

[MrFilthyIke]

At GenCon '01, at a Monte Cook seminar I asked this same question. I do not remember Monte's exact quote, but he definately did not know of, or at least see, the similarities. So I doubt it was discussed in a structured way.

I'm sure that it was a blend of keeping the d20 that we all know and love and streamlining the system with influences from numerous games. The influences are there, but not complete.

 

[SableWyvern]

I definitely see how D&D moved towards RM with 3rd ed. However, it probably impossible to determine whether RM influenced Monte's ideas, or whether Monte's ideas influenced the development of RM in a similar fashion to the way his ideas influenced D&D.

Most likely, though, both are true to some degree.

 

[Cam Banks]

D&D3E is very much like the lovechild of 1st edition AD&D and the D&D of the boxed sets and Rules Cyclopedia, with a dash of Rolemaster. Indeed, the advanced versions of fighter, cleric, etc given in the D&D Companion Rules (avenger, paladin, druid) are proto-prestige classes. Having all ability scores provide the same consistent bonus is another hallmark of early D&D, and you can see something of the evolution of skills as derivatives of ability scores in the skill system that appeared first in the D&D Gazetteers rather than the non-weapon proficiency system of late 1st edition & 2nd edition AD&D.

I'd begun doing exactly this kind of hybridization, melding 1st edition AD&D and the Rules Cyclopedia D&D, shortly before 3e was announced, just to make things simpler. And as soon as I saw what 3e was, I shelved those rules and haven't looked back.

I can see the connections between D&D3E and Gamma World, also, which I believe to be a nod towards the same kind of progression GW was trying to make back in its day.

Cheers,
Cam