Origins of the d20 system?

[TheAuldGrump]

I have no knowledge of War Hammer, but to me the prestige classes always resembled something in the RM2 book, Arms Companion. In that product it was called Background Package, however it reminds me much of Prestige Classes - the the way PCs work so much as the descriptive layout. THe Background Packages were meant to be a way of customizing the characters. There was one package called the Treewraiths that always stands out as being memorable.

I tend to think of Prestige classes as preceded by the 1st edition Bard, where you took a few levels in a bunch of classes before starting the bard class. And the much despised kits from second edition (good idea, bad implimentation) also had a bearing on the 3e prestige class.



The Auld Grump, who kew diaglo would show up sooner or later...

 

[buzz]

If I remember correctly, wasn't Talislanta WOTC's first foray into the RPG market?

Yes, though they did also own Ars Magica for a time.

Still, they only produced a single book for Talislanta, and that was about 8 years before 3e came out. I'm not sure I can seem them going, "Hey, we should make the new D&D just like that one game we printed that one time that didn't sell very well."

It makes more sense to me to focus on the designers. Basically, if you look at Tweet's and Cook's earlier products, you'll see threads that got picked up in 3e. They obviously have certain sensibilities that show through in what they design.

 

[buzz]

On his website, Jonathan Tweet writes: "If you want to see where the core system for the current edition of D&D comes from, pick up Ars Magica." Link is here.

Interesting Talislanta tidbit:

Talislanta Guidebook (1994, Wizards of the Coast): An overhaul of Stephen Michael Sechi's excellent Talislanta RPG and setting. I was originally commissioned to write an introductory adventure, but I convinced Wizards that there was no introductory adventure to write until the system itself had been fixed.

 

[talfan68]

Talislnata

WOTC did a crapload more than one Talislanta book. They did the core rulebook, a monster book, mage book a couple of race books and a couple of adventures/campaign books too.

 

[diaglo]

WOTC did a crapload...

you got the first part of the statement right at least.

 

[Psion]

Yeah, it's pretty hard not to see footprints of the original bard (and later, theif-acrobat) in prestige classes. Likewise it certainly feels like the career changes in WHFRP (excepting you never get to the point where you have to change classes in D&D.)

But from what I hear, kits are the biggest impetus for prestige classes. Not by what they did right, but by what they didn't. One of the designers was talking about how a major problem with kits was that they were implicitly started from first level, and introducing a new book with them would require a new character (possibly even a new campaign) if you wanted to use them. A desire to make kits more flexible for later inclusion in a game was one of the reasons given for the shape prestige classes have taken today.

 

[diaglo]

Yeah, it's pretty hard not to see footprints of the original bard (and later, theif-acrobat) in prestige classes. Likewise it certainly feels like the career changes in WHFRP (excepting you never get to the point where you have to change classes in D&D.)

it wasn't just Advanced that did this. don't forget the D&D versions of this too.

and the mutations that went into the later Rules cyclopedia

 

[Psion]

it wasn't just Advanced that did this. don't forget the D&D versions of this too.

Did what? I don't understand what you are saying.

 

[diaglo]

Did what? I don't understand what you are saying.

it wasn't just Advanced that spawned PrCs.

 

[buzz]

WOTC did a crapload more than one Talislanta book. They did the core rulebook, a monster book, mage book a couple of race books and a couple of adventures/campaign books too.

Dang www.pen-paper.net DB only listed the one. My bad, talfan.