Origins of the d20 system?

[talfan68]

Does anyone know where the nuggets of the d20 system originated? I mean DnD 3.0 is a long way off from second edition. So where did all the new ideas and concepts come from?

I've been a fan of the Talislanta game since back in the 80's but dropped out of RPGs pretty much through the 90's and got back into it (like a lot of people) with the release of DnD 3.0.

The reason I'm interested is because since I've picked up the 4th edition of Talislanta I've noticed some MAJOR similarities between systems and then found out that Jonathan Tweet actually designed the 3rd edition of Talislanta when WOTC owned it (before they bought up TSR). He, of course, moved on to be one of the architects of 3E but it seems he brought a lot of Talislanta along with him.

So, it seems to me like Talislanta is pretty much the parent of the current iteration of DnD. What do others think?

Talfan68

 

[diaglo]

Does anyone know where the nuggets of the d20 system originated? I mean DnD 3.0 is a long way off from second edition. So where did all the new ideas and concepts come from?

it is the work of the Devil.

 

[Keeper of Secrets]

it is the work of the Devil.

Oh Lord, you've got diaglo started . . .

 

[Desdichado]

Alternity, the game produced shortly after WotC's buyout of TSR, seems like a good hybrid system that provides an evolutionary "missing link" between 2e and 3e. At least in my opinion.

 

[Rasyr]

So, it seems to me like Talislanta is pretty much the parent of the current iteration of DnD. What do others think?

To me, it seems like Rolemaster had a large hand in the development of d20 as well. Monte Cook used to work for ICE way back before he started working for TSR.

For example, the skill system, is pretty much the rolemaster skill system divided by 5. Also, Rolemaster has long had talents and before that special starting options, all of which are remarkably like d20 Feats.

What is even funnier, is that one distributor that I know of referred to d20 as Rolemaster Lite when it first came out....


I am sure that there are also elements of games that Jonathon Tweet (btw, I thought is was Ars Magica that Tweet worked on, not Talislanta - but I could always be wrong) worked on previously as well. Plus, d20 retains the fire-n-forget spell system from AD&D, so that and other elements likely come from there as well.

 

[Henry]

There is a fellow poster named Rel on these forums, who tells the story that they switched from Rolemaster to 3E because it did the same kinds of things they did under Rolemaster, but with simpler rules.

As for 3E's pedigree, it really is a mongrel in terms of game rules. A bit of Ars Magica, a bit of Rolemaster, add in some simplifications of die mechanic rules, spit-polish a few sacred cows, and you've got the Rocky of Dr. Frank N. Furter's dreams - a Frankenstein's monster with pretty buff looks.

 

[Psion]

So, it seems to me like Talislanta is pretty much the parent of the current iteration of DnD. What do others think?

One might think that if you never played any other games that came out in the last 20 years. I think the descendance from Talislanta and Ars Magica is weak.

Tweet actually had an interesting statement, that many were taking as saying "D&D's 0-based modifiers came from Ars", but if you look more closely, even Tweet doesn't really claim that. (Alas, I am having trouble Googling it to pull up what I mean.)

Edit: Ah, here it is. Some commets BOLDED for emphasis.

Q. As lead designer, what element of 3rd Edition Dungeons & Dragons are you most proud of?

A. The core system, the basic mathematical metaphor for "what does a number on your character sheet mean?" The fundamental system underpins the rest of the structure, providing a firm foundation on which to build sub-systems. That's highfalutin game-designer-ese for "how the dice roll."

The fundamental system of 3rd Edition evolved from the D&D campaign I was running back in 1981. In 1986, I developed it into a stand-alone system for the RPG Ars Magica. When I joined the 3rd Edition team, the other guys were already working with a system with many of the same basic assumptions. It's nice to watch things circle back on themselves.

LINK

As you can see, not only did Tweet's designs originate on D&D himself, the design team was considering such a system before he even joined the team.

Not that Tweet didn't contribute to the task system's formation, but sometimes people exagarate the role his other games played a bit.


There are many other tweaks that enter the game at various points that have nothing to do with Talislanta and you can see signs of it elsewhere in the hobby... again, many from earlier versions of D&D. You can see early d20-isms in the likes of Oriental Adventures, Combat & Tactics, Alternity, the old High Level book, as well as a variety on non-dnd games.

 

[Nisarg]

If you're looking for "missing links", I think D&D 3e had a lot more to owe Ars Magica than it did Rolemaster.. but really its not nescessarily either of those two that it owes, so much as certain roleplaying concepts that had long been around but that 2e had simply ignored. The idea of skills being in the form of bonuses versus a difficulty, the idea of special advantages you can get every so often, etc. etc.

The single game that had the MOST influence on D&D was clearly AD&D 1st edition. 3rd rolled back almost all of the changes that 2nd ed had made, brought back the monks and assasins, brought back demons and devils, the D&D 3e DM's guide is clearly Monte's homage to the wonderful old Gary Gygax AD&D Dungeon Master's Guide, in both layout and form, and more important than the letter of the rules they tried to capture that spirit of possibility that was found in the old 1st edition rules, that were so sorely lacking from the 2nd ed rules.

And beyond that, if there is one source that I would credit more than either Ars Magica, Talisanta, or Rolemaster for influencing 3rd edition D&D, it would be the playtests that Wizards did with groups of real gamers, and the incorporation of many of their HOUSE RULES into what would become 3rd edition. I'm willing to bet that a lot of the new ideas and changes in 3rd edition came from that, from finding out just how gamers had been trying to make 2nd ed playable for the last decade.

In fact, I remember, as no doubt many of you do too, that when 3rd edition first came out I was amazed at how many of the new rules were a carbon copy of house rules I'd been using for years.

Anyways, as for the (funny) suggestion that Rolemaster is responsible for the new rules changes (coincidentally put forward by the guy in charge of the new version of rolemaster.. hmm, advertising much?), I would just have to say geez, if rolemaster had really been a huge influence on 3rd ed., you'd think that they would have added the one and ONLY thing that was good about that clunker of a system.. the critical tables!

Nisarg

 

[DMScott]

Does anyone know where the nuggets of the d20 system originated? I mean DnD 3.0 is a long way off from second edition.

Not really, IMHO. When my group first started playing 3E, the biggest things to get used to were:

- multiclassing
- attributes giving bonuses starting at 12
- damage resistance
- hit dice all the way to level 20

... the first one being the biggest, but it mirrored house rules we already had in play so it wasn't such a huge deal. Many other things were changed, of course, but they were obvious evolutions of older rules rather than huge shifts.

I see d20 as a shift in marketing and licensing far more than a shift in rules - the real defining quality of 3E was how open WOTC was to third-party development. IMHO, that was far and away more important than any rules changes, and is easily the most important factor in D&D's current popularity. From that point of view, IMHO the nuggets of d20 were open source software, fan supported systems that refuse to die long after the publisher went belly-up, collaborative fiction, and other shared-development concepts.

 

[DClingman]

When I first read 3e I though "Role Master Lite". Finally people will play with me again!!!

I used to have major gaming session of Rolemaster, which isn't any such problem once you get the hang of it. Combats were shorter than some of the ones in 3e.

The most telling inspiration comes in the skills. Looking at the skill system for Rolemaster and comparing it to the limited ranks/class-cross class skill system, I see alot of influence. Not to say this is the only place where it happened of course.

Dustin