Origins of the d20 system?

[Khayman]

I'm not certain if there is a direct connection, but d20's use of prestige classes suggests a link to Warhammer Fantasy Role Play. On the other hand, it might just be fancy multiclassing. Anyone know anything about this?

 

[Rasyr]

I'm not certain if there is a direct connection, but d20's use of prestige classes suggests a link to Warhammer Fantasy Role Play. On the other hand, it might just be fancy multiclassing. Anyone know anything about this?

I have no knowledge of War Hammer, but to me the prestige classes always resembled something in the RM2 book, Arms Companion. In that product it was called Background Package, however it reminds me much of Prestige Classes - the the way PCs work so much as the descriptive layout. THe Background Packages were meant to be a way of customizing the characters. There was one package called the Treewraiths that always stands out as being memorable.

Anyways, all in all, I think that it is likely that many systems had influence d20. One poster mentions House Rules from the playtesters, and yet forgets that those House Rules did not come into existance in a vacuum. House Rules are often (not always, but often) based upon rules that the maker of the House Rule saw in another system (or from discussion with someody who may have experience with another system). It also ignores the fact that playtesting is done after the rules are written. While some things may be added or changed during playtesting, the core rules and concepts behind the system would have already been in place.

 

[Piratecat]

Anyways, as for the (funny) suggestion that Rolemaster is responsible for the new rules changes (coincidentally put forward by the guy in charge of the new version of rolemaster.. hmm, advertising much?),

I'd be a lot more comfortable if this conversation was held without veiled sniping. It's okay if you don't agree with someone's opinion, but snarky attacks of folks isn't what I want to see.

Thanks!

Anyways, everyone knows d20 is actually based on Clay-O-Rama. . .

 

[Pielorinho]

Anyways, everyone knows d20 is actually based on Clay-O-Rama. . .

And let's not forget fourteenth-edition Badminton. Huge influence, especially in the area of critical hits.

Daniel

okay, now somebody ask me how I know that.

 

[Nisarg]

I'd be a lot more comfortable if this conversation was held without veiled sniping. It's okay if you don't agree with someone's opinion, but snarky attacks of folks isn't what I want to see.

Thanks!

Anyways, everyone knows d20 is actually based on Clay-O-Rama. . .

My apologies if that was interpreted as a "snarky attack" piratecat, its just that Rasyr didn't mention the fact that he's the industry guy for the new version of Rolemaster... and therefore might have a vested interest in creating the perception that there's some kind of connection between D&D and rolemaster, or that 3rd edition owes its "improvements" to rolemaster.

It'd be kind of like if Kevin Siembieda came on here and claimed that things in D&D 3rd were based on the Palladium system, only Siembieda has enough name recognition that people would immediately know that he's promoting his own system if he says that.

Anyways, wasn't meant to be an "attack", only an "outing" of identity. Rasyr's entitled as much as anyone to make a case for RM (or any other system) being an influence on 3e, I just think its an honesty thing for people professionally connected to a system to make that connection known when they're talking about it. Just so that its known that their opinion is from the point of view of someone commercially involved and not just a "fan".

Nisarg

 

[Shallown]

Some of the roots, I think, are from gamma world 4th edition as well.

Later

 

[Umbran]

In thinking about descent, it is also important to realize that in this field it is pretty easy to come upon convergent evolution. Just because a mechanic from 3e resembles a mechanic in another game does not imply direct influence.

 

[Pramas]

In thinking about descent, it is also important to realize that in this field it is pretty easy to come upon convergent evolution. Just because a mechanic from 3e resembles a mechanic in another game does not imply direct influence.

It's true and system partisans love to feel that their games of choice were so good that D&D "ripped them off." When 3E first came out, I remember one industry guy crowing about they had clearly seen the greatness of the Fuzion system and imitated it, which is a pretty laughable assertation. Runequest was definitely an influence, but Fuzion, no.

 

[Nisarg]

It's true and system partisans love to feel that their games of choice were so good that D&D "ripped them off." When 3E first came out, I remember one industry guy crowing about they had clearly seen the greatness of the Fuzion system and imitated it, which is a pretty laughable assertation. Runequest was definitely an influence, but Fuzion, no.

Exactly. Short of direct confessions by Jonathan Tweet, the only system we can say D&D "ripped off" is D&D.

Nisarg

 

[buzz]

I have no knowledge of War Hammer, but to me the prestige classes always resembled something in the RM2 book, Arms Companion.

Tweet points out that the real ancestor of the PrC is the Rune Lord and Rune Priest from Runequest (1978). Though a classless system, both of these were basically "prestige" roles that required a PC meet certain prerequisites (both mechanically and RP) before entering.

However, according to Tweet, it was Monte who actually came up with the PrC concept, so there may be a RM connection.

And, not to be snarky, but I'm hesitant to credit RM with much influence, simply because I remember when RM was basically a set of rules-add-ons for AD&D, and that the basic "model" of RM is the D&D model. Most of what RM could contribute can possibly be seen as nascent in D&D to begin with.

Not to mention, the basic mechanic behind d20 --d20+mods >= target number-- is basically how combat has been resolved in D&D since 1974.

d20 draws on a lot of influences in a lot of major and minor ways. Pointing to any one system and claiming d20 is somehow a "ripoff" (something I often see people doing with their pet system of choice) is pretty silly, IMO. d20 seems to simply have found (or at least resemble) a lot of good ideas from all over the place and combined them into an excellent whole.