D&D General [OSR] Holmes 77 Retro-Clone

[The Soloist]

Seems like the Holmes 77 retro-clone (2011) by RC Pinnel was forgotten by the OSR community. Labyrinths & Perils claims to be the first Holmes retro-clone, but that is false according to Tenkar.

 

[mixmastashizz]

Nevermind

 

[The Soloist]

Never heard of these two retro-clones before today. BlueHolmes Journeymanne rules (2017) are my go to Holmes retro-clone. Goes up to level 20. Very well made and respectful of the original.

 

[Jack Daniel]

I remember these clones from back when. And the drama.

But it's understandable to me that a Holmes clone won't usually get a lot of attention. The Holmes rules are a subset of the LBB + Greyhawk rules plus a handful of idiosyncrasies. You can make a Holmes clone for the sake of preservation or nostalgia or personal preference, but when it comes to the primary purpose for retro-clones existing — branding and publishing — there's not a lot you can accomplish with a Holmes clone that you couldn't already do with an LBB clone.

Especially one like Swords & Wizardry, which rather prominently adds sidebars all over the place explaining variant rules, alternate interpretations, &c. That right there would be entirely sufficient to account for all of the Holmesean peculiarities.

(Maybe this is a spicy hot take, but I feel the same way about BX clones with respect to BECMI/RC. The former is a subset of the latter, not some specially isolated, standalone thing.)

 

[kermit4karate]

There are so many of these clones it's hard to keep track, and very few of the ones I come across stand out. Can anyone familiar with Holmes 77 cite some things that make it memorable?

 

[The Soloist]

There are so many of these clones it's hard to keep track, and very few of the ones I come across stand out. Can anyone familiar with Holmes 77 cite some things that make it memorable?

It's memorable because it was the first one and at the time WoTC did not share the PDFs like they do today. For those who no longer had there box sets, it was fun to have access to the rules again without having to pay eBay prices. It respects the original rules. It's was not about being creative like the other retro-clones that came later on.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

But it's understandable to me that a Holmes clone won't usually get a lot of attention. The Holmes rules are a subset of the LBB + Greyhawk rules plus a handful of idiosyncrasies. You can make a Holmes clone for the sake of preservation or nostalgia or personal preference, but when it comes to the primary purpose for retro-clones existing — branding and publishing — there's not a lot you can accomplish with a Holmes clone that you couldn't already do with an LBB clone.

Especially one like Swords & Wizardry, which rather prominently adds sidebars all over the place explaining variant rules, alternate interpretations, &c. That right there would be entirely sufficient to account for all of the Holmesean peculiarities.

Yeah, even at the time, the Holmes rules weren't particularly well-loved. I suspect that wanting to bring it back is a nostalgia thing for a very select audience or a preservationist impulse.

But for today's groups, I agree with just grabbing Swords & Wizardry.

Maybe this is a spicy hot take, but I feel the same way about BX clones with respect to BECMI/RC. The former is a subset of the latter, not some specially isolated, standalone thing.

I think the B/X aficionados -- including the OSE folks -- generally feel that the BECMI books added too much cruft. If you want to go pick fights with a mine full of kobolds, you don't really need domain play, wargame or immortal rules.