[OT] Bali terrorist attacks

[Existence]

I can hardly wait to see what our ever-eloquent government says about this...

Tlielaxu, my thoughts and best wishes go out to your friend, and to any others that may be out there.

Human beings realy get me down every now and then.

Hygric, just imagine if the majority of those victims hailed from North America...what with all his recent rhetoric about rogue states, shrubbie could be headed our way (Oz). I sure hope not.

 

[Roman]

I have the misfortune to have my parents live in Jakarta and visit them frequently. Jakarta is not a nice place to live in by any stretch (polution, etc.) and it is also not safe. The extremist Muslim groups in Indonesia are growing in power, though they are not yet ubiquitous. Unfortunately, this was not the first anti-foreign terrorist attack in Indonesia and I am sure it will not be the last either. My thoughts go to those who were affected in this catastrophe. I and my family had a close call last year:

I and my grandparents have been to visit my parents and sister (she studies in the already mentioned Jakarta International School) last Christmass and we want for the midnight Christmass mass. We wanted to go to the main Cathedral, but decided to go to a smaller place instead. I even made a bad joke, "Let's not go to the Cathedral, with all the anti-Christian sentiment it will probably be bombed". Guess what? Sure enough, it was bombed right during the Christmass mass, when it was packed with Christians. Dozens of other churches were bombed simultaneously - to cause the greatest casualties and to disrupt Christmass celebrations. If we did go to the Cathedral, all three generations of my family could have been wiped out - there would not have been anyone left to even mourn for us. I pity those families to whom it actually happened.

Unfortunately, I fear that Indonesia is sliding into extreme intolerance. Many people (but not all) in Indonesia are intolerant particularly of Christians and Budhists and many are racist against the Chinese and white people. Please, do not go to Indonesia if you belong to any of those groups uless you absolutely have to.

 

[tleilaxu]

i got this email from my DM regarding our player, james

James was in Bali, but his wife said he is okay and should be home tomorrow. She said he was about a kilometer away from the explosion, but that he is having to help identify the remains of several people there. Overall it must be quite horrible.

So at least -he- is ok. He just had a kid a few months ago and I had bad dreams last night thinking about that

 

[William Ronald]

Has anyone heard from Alyx? I have not seen him post in a while, but last I heard, he was still in Indonesia. I hope he is well.

This is a very sad story. I believe that there is such a thing as good and evil in the world. (Okay, let's not turn this into an alignment thread. ) I would argue that the targeting of unarmed civilians is evil.

It seems that there is a growing tide of fanaticism in many countries. For myself, I believe that if I demand rights for myself I must respect the rights of others. My rights end where yours begin.

I am saddened to here that some people may be celebrating the deaths of some 182 people. To those that may be celebrating, I would ask if they believe others should celebrate if their love ones were victims of a bomb.

May the people who lost loved ones be comforted in this dark time.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Re: Re: [OT] Bali terrorist attacks

Umm. What else could it be than a terrorist attack? Is there any way that anyone could detonate a bomb in a crowded nightclub and not be a terrorist?

Regards,


Agback

Umm, doesn't that just deny any independent meaning to the word "terrorism?

If you call any act of violence against “terrorism” you put a bank robbery in with the Columbine High School Massacre in with that thing that happened in Helsinki in with Nelson Mandella’s ANC campaign of infrastructure destruction in with flying two airliners into the World Trade Centre towers.

That just seems strange to me. What is your definition of terrorism?

To me, terrorism is the use of force against civilians in order to bring publicity to a political cause and/or to disrupt political opponents through fear of further violence. Others have defined it as violence against civilians used as a means to a political end.

If these Bali attacks were done by some crazy who hated the world or wanted revenge on the bar owner or even who just hated drunken Aussies, then it probably wasn’t ‘terrorism’ in my book. It was a crime, mass murder, in all its sordid simplicity.

If it was by al Quaida (sp?), Jamiah Islamia (sp?), or Indonesian Nationalists angry over Australia’s role in supporting the successful separatist majority in East Timor, then it probably was terrorism – the use of violence to achieve a political end.

But I don’t think it’s a good idea to turn ‘terrorism’ into a word that means ‘violence against a lot of people’ or ‘violence by people we don’t like’.

Detonating a bomb in/outside a crowded nightclub is not, in my opinion, ipso facto 'terrorism'. Like most crimes, it depends on the intent of the criminal.

But I agree, based on the news reports, this is almsot certainly terrorism. For example, the new York Times says:

With cold calculation and meticulous planning, including reconnaissance, the bombers chose an unusual target, one that was certain to sow fear far beyond Bali, said a Western security analyst in Jakarta.

It was on a faraway island, primarily populated by Hindus, with a reputation for tranquillity, and popular as a resort with backpackers and the wealthy alike.

It was one of the deadliest attacks on civilians anywhere in the world in the last decade, one that seemed intended to undercut feelings of safety even in a remote enclave.

Use of terror to paralyse a civilian population and make it feel unsafe. Apparantly directed at nationals of Australia, a staunch US ally in Bush's 'War on Terror'. No idea what the political agenda was, but it can be inferred: either Islamist anti-westernism of the Al Qada sort, or Indonesian nationalists angry at Australia's role in East Timor, or a bit of both...

To put it another way, a guy mugs you and kills you for money - he's a crook; if he mugs you and kills you becasue, say, you're a British army officer in Northern ireland and he wants to scare the bejesus our of your buddies until they get out of Ireland and let him drive the proddies out after them - he's a terrorist.

 

[Eternalknight]

Re: Re: [OT] Bali terrorist attacks

Umm. What else could it be than a terrorist attack? Is there any way that anyone could detonate a bomb in a crowded nightclub and not be a terrorist?

Regards,


Agback

What Atticus said . I too agree it is almost without a doubt a terrorist act, but as I said it is not confirmed. Atticus: you say "Apparently directed at Australian nationals"; I know you had the word apparently in there, but we should also point out it may have been targeted at all foreigners, not just us.

The main problem is the fact that whoever did it may escape, due to Indonesia's laws. Let's hope they allow the Australian government to aid in the investigation.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

My parents visited Bali only last year. They know some of the places that were attacked...

Scary times.

 

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Re: Re: Re: [OT] Bali terrorist attacks

What Atticus said . I too agree it is almost without a doubt a terrorist act, but as I said it is not confirmed. Atticus: you say "Apparently directed at Australian nationals"; I know you had the word apparently in there, but we should also point out it may have been targeted at all foreigners, not just us.

The main problem is the fact that whoever did it may escape, due to Indonesia's laws. Let's hope they allow the Australian government to aid in the investigation.

My prediction is that there is NO WAY the Indonesians will let us anywhere near the investigations. Since East Timor, Australians have been SO personae non grata in Indonesia. I have Canadian friends who were surrounded by an armed mob in Jakarta – they had to prove they weren’t Aussie to avoid being beaten.

While the attack may have been directed at westerners in general (assuming it was terrorism), I’d be pretty confident that in Indonesia, Australians would vie with Americans for the ‘most disliked’ award.

Doesn’t really help that the side of Australians that Indonesians predominantly see in Bali is the hard drinking “yobbish” side…

But I agree - let's not go jumping to any conclusions just yet. Remember when we all thought the Oklahoma bombing was Islamic fundamentalists?

Nevertheless, my bet is on an unholy alliance of Islamic Fundamentalism and wounded Indonesian Nationalism with Australians being an easy proxy for the West in general and America in particular.

 

[Jürgen Hubert]

Maybe this was also directed at German tourists (who are as commonplace in Bali as they are everywhere else). Take a look at this story:

"Al-Zawahri, 51, is believed to be bin Laden's doctor and spiritual adviser, providing the ideology that drove al-Qaida. He was the head of Egyptian Islamic Jihad until he forged an alliance with bin Laden in 1998.

Al-Zawahri is on the U.S. most wanted list and the government is offering a reward of up to $25 million for information leading to his capture. Egypt sentenced him to death in absentia in 1999 for his role in the 1995 bombing of the Egyptian Embassy in Pakistan and for attempting to kill officials in Egypt. He has been indicted in the United States for his alleged role in the 1998 bombings of the U.S. embassies in Tanzania and Kenya.

In the recording, al-Zawahri issues a warning to U.S. allies - ``the deputies of America'' - to get out of the Muslim world, specifying Germany and France.

``The mujahid youth has already sent messages to Germany and France,'' he said. ``However, if these doses are not enough, we are prepared with the help of Allah, to inject further doses.''

A May 8 attack on a bus in Pakistan killed 11 French engineers and an April 11 blast at a synagogue in Tunisia, a former French colony, killed 16 people, including 11 Germans. Both attacks have been linked to al-Qaida."

Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

 

[Mark Chance]

Remember when we all thought the Oklahoma bombing was Islamic fundamentalists?

I never thought the OKC bombing was done by Muslim terrorists. The similarities between the attack and The Turner Diaries (not coincidentally Timothy McVeigh's favorite book) were too startling to ignore. It was obvious to anyone who'd been paying attention to the U.S. militia movement and the like of the National Alliance (not coincidentally a group that Timothy McVeigh was in direct contact with before and after the bombing) that the attack was done by a "good old boy."

OTOH, jumping to the conclusion that terrorist violence in Indonesia, a region wracked by Muslim violence, has been perpetrated by Muslims isn't much of a jump.