[OT] Black Hawk Down - Somalia Operation

You'll read much of this in the book.

Rashak Mani said:
First was the operation that badly planned as shown in the movie ? Throwing away the surprise element... not using APCs... not using air cover effectively ... didnt they use Apache Helicopters as well ? These would have been great in that kind of environment....

Couple of things (and mind you some of this is my supposition)

Badly planned? In retrospect, yes. However, bear in mind that they had been pulling these sort of operations for almost a month without any problems. They did not expect one of the helicopters to get shot down (which is where the problems started). They didn't think the Somalis had anti-air missles (which they didn't) but didn't expect the Somalis to modify anti-tank rockets to fire in the air. I think some of it was over confidence on the part of the American planners.

There was also some overconfidence on the part of the grunts too. They decided not to bring nightvision goggles or even canteens because they thought it would be another quick routine mission. They did not plan on the worst outcome. There was also some friction between the Rangers and Delta Force operatives that would play a role (such as having two captains without either of them knowing who was senior between them)

APCs were part of the plan - they were set to arrive a few minutes after the Rangers and D-boys arrived. For the most part it worked, but when the helicopter got shot down, the APCs had to return to base while the infantry headed to the crash site.

Air cover is a mixed blessing, especially in a densely packed environment such as a city - remember also that at the beginning they really did want to limit non-combatant casualties. They couldn't simply bomb every building around for fear of killing the friendly infantry or needless civillian deaths/injuries. However later on, during the night, the air cover ruled the skies and basically killed almost everything moving. In that sense, air support worked.

The air support consisted mainly of small, fast gunships. I don't know if any Apaches were used, but something springs to mind that was learned in the Gulf War of '91. Apaches require a tremendous amount of maintence in desert/sand conditions - very expensive and inefficient repairs. Plus they're slow and they already had 2 Blackhawks get shot down within an hour of each other. My guess is that even if they were available, they would be leary of sending in slow moving expensive targets.


Second how come in the movie the Americans never climbed to the roofs ? Would seem the best defensive places... best for helicopter rescue as well... or am I wrong ? I know that might result in their getting boxed in...

Rooftops are a mixed blessing - you can see everything and everything can see you. It's real easy to sillouhette yourself against the moonlight and present a good target for anyone on the ground.

Besides with RPGs going off, I'd want to be behind some protection from the shrapnel.

Third how faithful overall was the movie to how the action happened ? What aspects were off and which were right on ?

I'll leave this alone and let you decide after reading the book.
 

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In response to billd91's comment that the soldiers "tried to protect a helicopter downed by a fairly lucky hit." The helicopter was not downed by a fairly lucky hit. The guys who took down the helicopter knew what they were doing -- they had years of practice in Afghanistan.

Not many people know, because it wasn't learned until years later, that the men who fired the shot that brought down the helicopter on that mission were terrorists financed by Osama bin Laden. He spent the money to train them in Afghanistan, and he spent $2 million to move them to Somalia after the Americans went into Mogadishu. They had been waiting there for an opportunity to strike against the Americans. That day was their first chance, and they took it. It was Osama bin Laden's first strike against the U.S.

Bin Laden's men had learned the technique for taking out helicopters with RPGs from the rebels who fought against the Soviets in Afghanistan. After the war, they started teaching the technique to revolutionaries and terrorists training in the country.

I saw a very interesting report about all of this on MSNBC back when the movie "Black Hawk Down" first came out. In part it was a repeat of a story they had done years earlier, shortly after the mission, and then they added some updates of things learned in the years afterwards. They interviewed several of the soldiers involved, and some of the commanding officers who made the decisions which affected the mission, and with some of the advisors in the Clinton administration.
 

Please don't let this thread stray into political debate or opinions. It's on the very edge of what's appropriate here, as political threads aren't allowed, so I'd rather not have to close it.

Thanks!
 


The Philly Enquirer Online ...or something like that... I had found a link earlier has some stuff about the book... they had lots of videos but not anymore... some audio interviews are still there...

Link: http://inquirer.philly.com/packages/somalia/sitemap.asp

Shadowdancers Osama thing seems plausible... its no mean feat to hit helicopters that way. I´ll see what the sites have on that. They did get lucky twice on the same day... somewhat hard isnt it...

(PCat dont worry... we´ll keep it in line...)
 
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billd91 said:


Snip

I think it largely boils down to the Rangers just getting pinned down with a stunning amount of firepower as they tried to protect a helicopter downed by a fairly lucky hit.

Snip

Well, according to Bowdens book 5 helicopters were damaged by RPGs during the same operations, so it was hardly a 'fairly lucky' hit. Two helicopters went down, and the others had to limp back to base. I'd say the somalis were quite good shots with RPGs. (The RPGs had time-fuses though, so a direct hit wasn't required.)

In the book they rip up a friggin cow with a minigun, is that in the movie too? And was it a somekind of a joke to name the minigun a minigun? ;)
 

Numion said:

And was it a somekind of a joke to name the minigun a minigun? ;)

The 7.62mm minigun is essentially a smaller version of the multibarrelled M61 20mm cannon fitted to many US-made fighter planes. So from that point of view, it is indeed a "mini" gun.
 

Rashak Mani said:
I just came back from watching the Black Hawk Down movie (takes time to show over here) and thou I have a lot of armchair general knowledge I was kind of lost on some of the military aspects of the movie. Since there are so many ex and current military on this board I thought some of you guys could help me out.

First was the operation that badly planned as shown in the movie ? Throwing away the surprise element... not using APCs... not using air cover effectively ... didnt they use Apache Helicopters as well ? These would have been great in that kind of environment....

Second how come in the movie the Americans never climbed to the roofs ? Would seem the best defensive places... best for helicopter rescue as well... or am I wrong ? I know that might result in their getting boxed in...

Third how faithful overall was the movie to how the action happened ? What aspects were off and which were right on ?

Finally do you guys have any interesting links where I can read about the operation ? Homepages with stuff about not only the movie but the attempt to capture Aidid as well... thanks

(Sorry for the OT thread... but I cant imagine a better place to ask these questions - zes@brturbo.com for e-mail messages )


I can address a couple of the issues you asked about.
I was an 18E for about 9 yrs and personally know a couple of the guys that were there (John and Paul).

First:
They WERE pinned down but had the opportunity a couple of times to move to "higher ground" when things got bad. One of the reasons they couldn't/wouldn't was because of the convoy that was "just around the corner". They fully expected the convoy to get there and provide covering fire while they piled in and got the hell out of there. Another was the wounded guys. Sometimes you just have to suck it up and worry about them. I can't hazard guess any other justifications the D-boys had for staying on the ground. If they wanted to there must have been a good enough reason to do it. I wouldn't second guess them.
Visibility of a chopper compared to a ground vehicle really comes into play here too. You can see a chopper from EVERYWHERE in the area compared to the minimal visibility footprint of wheeled vehicles. When the chopper came in to re-supply them on the ground it was in the area for about 30-40 seconds and got chewed up. It would have taken considerably longer to load everyone. A Blackhawk will fly after taking incredible amounts of damage but they were getting chewed up pretty bad. Imagine the balls the pilots and crew had to even fly into that environment. Much less go back again and again after seeing the last one come back in spewing fluids and whistling like a thrown cheese grader. The pilots were lined up to fly. Any bird available was spun up and ready to go. TF-160 is THE BEST aviation unit in the world.

**On a side note** Medics are truly blessed with the protective hand of God (or whoever you believe in). I have witnessed them doing things that would make you want to cry with pride. I have seen them turn their backs on everything to treat and try to stabilize hurt/wounded guys.

Cpt. Steele was a pompous, arrogant, condescending ass who was trying to make a name for himself instead of working with more qualified and competent soldiers. His boys (rangers) truly look up to the D-boys and wanted the operational freedom that is not possible with their line of work. I understand his concern with them getting another mind set but I personally feel he endangered lives unnecessarily.

I don’t remember if they had APCs available or not. I can’t really say with confidence either way.


The movie was pretty close to the book aside from the hollywooding. Although I have to mention the book missed some real good information concerning John. I have never met a more genuine, honest, caring and deadly guy. I am humbled to be around him. <DISCLAIMER!!!!!! PERSONAL OPINION FOLLOWS>
He actually turned me on to the idea of it being ok to believe in religion and not being embarrassed about it.

I hope this helped some.
Mike
De Oppresso Liber
 

Numion said:


Well, according to Bowdens book 5 helicopters were damaged by RPGs during the same operations, so it was hardly a 'fairly lucky' hit. Two helicopters went down, and the others had to limp back to base. I'd say the somalis were quite good shots with RPGs. (The RPGs had time-fuses though, so a direct hit wasn't required.)

In the book they rip up a friggin cow with a minigun, is that in the movie too? And was it a somekind of a joke to name the minigun a minigun? ;)

The Somalies had extensive training and practice with the RPGs.
"How to bring down American Blackhawk choppers by hitting them in the tailboom" practice.


You ought to see a CH-47 (Chinook) with mini-guns and .50 cals spewing death and raining brass on a SF pilot recovery team lying prone underneath it.

We had "Brass hickeys" for weeks.


Brainburn
 

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