(OT)???Egypt and Greece Classes???

[I'm A Banana]

Here's some random thoughts. I'm a bit rusty, but this should be okay for something with the flavor if not the accuracy...

GREECE:
*Commoner = Farmer
*Warrior = Militiaman. Probably the militarized citizenry, like those Spartans.
*Adept = General priest. Serves at marriages, funeral rites, etc.
*Aristocrat = Rich folk. Probably a lot of focus on Knowledge skills, especially with those snobs in Athens
*Expert = Rich folk who actually know stuff, or common laborers and specialists, like smiths and potters.

*Barbarian = "Outsider." Maybe give 'em Persian aspects, have 'em ride horses. Or they could be the wierd bacchanalian savages (see Druid). Or they could be wrestler types, sportsmen and the like.
*Bard = Actor. Instead of singing songs, they take on the likeness of gods and work through their power of persuasion.
*Cleric = Medic. These guys run hospitals and know a lot about the body. Not so much religious...maybe more leagal and militaristic.
*Druid = Wild folk. Probably hedonistic, related to Bacchus or Dionysus, definately all about the wilderness and subversion of order. Maybe with the Barbarians being the hardcore cultists, and these guys just being your wierd old dudes.
*Fighter = Traditional soldier/hoplyte. Probably a bunch of close-quarters feats and spear feats and shield feats.
*Monk = Wierd philosopher type. They're the yahoos who hear the rythms of the world and who go in caves and who come back from the dead and who you hear mentioned in obscure math classes today.
*Paladin = Defender Against the Dead. When your anscestors get angry at you, these guys are the ones to call on. Or, when Zeus decides to send a few harpies after you -- these guys are the ones who can probably help you out. Probably powerful judges and justices.
*Psion = Mystic philosopher. Probably all about the wierd drugs and altered states and funky ideas.
*Psychic Warrior = Mystic Warrior. They're more concerned with the union of thought and action, the martial and the cerebral, the law and the chaos, the life and the death...probably a fairly elite group.
*Ranger = Hunter. The wilderness is their domain. Probably strong Amazon influence, too... (I'm thinking PrC, here, for dedicated lady archers). They'd probably be friends with the wierd cult guys, and the revelers.
*Rogue = Typical theif/scout. All societies need these guys.
*Sorcerer = Godspawn. With as many horny deities as these guys have, it's inevitable that the power of the gods is born into some of these guys. Also probably describes sorceresses like Medea and Circe.
*Wizard = Academian. They're the studious ones, knowing of factoids and fractals. They probably ally closely with monks and/or psions.

Some races that may work well include: Half-Celesital (ECL+3), for those who have directly spawned from a deity, Aasimar (ECL+1) for those more distantly related, Fauns (in Deities and Demigods, ECL+1) for creatures of the woodlands, Humans are popular, a few Giant species (perhaps Ogre that aren't dumb) wouldn't be too odd. Elves could be a kind of degenerate nature spirit, Dwarves could be a degenerate earth spirit or volcano spirit, Halflings could be immigrants from afar that are rarely trusted, Gnomes could be spirit-folk, too, or perhaps coastal philosopher types. Mostly the differences are exaggerated cosmetics...adding a darker skin and a different culture suddenly makes you a different race...you could create "cultures" based on they typical bonus feat and extra skill taken (like, Athenians with their Education bonus feat and their extra Knowledge skill vs. Spartans with their Weapon Focus (longspear) bonus feat and their, I dunno, Bluff skill), and maybe even force a favored class in exchange for an automatic class skill.

 

[I'm A Banana]

And....

EGYPTIAN
*Commonner = Laborer/Farmer
*Adept = local temple priest
*Aristocrat = Rich priest or Pharoh-relative
*Warrior = General purpose militia and guards
*Expert = Designer, specialist, teacher

*Barbarian = Nonnative. Again, giving them Persian aspects isn't unfounded, nor is perhaps giving them more African aspects.
*Bard = Of The Blood of the Pharaohs. Probably a highly restricted class, these guys have the authority and magic of kings in them. They speak with power. No song and dance.
*Cleric = Temple Soldier. They're the strong arm of the religion.
*Druid = Desert Wierdo. Thing more scorpion and jackal than wolf and hawk. They don't fit into the normal scheme of politics and religion, that's fo sho.
*Fighter = Again, pro soldier and well-honed skilled combatant.
*Monk = Knower of Mysteries. Seeking a deeper communion with a god? The monks are the ones to seek. Most likely they higher-echelon temple ranks.
*Paladin = Knowledgable Judge. they seek and destroy those who oppose the rightful rule of the pharaoh. After all, when religion is law, fighting the opponents is a must. They're criminals.
*Psion = Basic spelluser. These guys are probably the elite, and probably kept close tabs on by the various religions. They're also probably mistrusted by the masses. Proablyy focused on re-birth.."every power used is a death of myself..."
*Psychic Warrior = Magic Knight. Probably a bit of a less upstanding Paladin knock-off.
*Ranger = Assassin-dude. They are of the scorpion -- wild, relentless, and highly trained, stealthy soldiers of the wilds. Offend the Pharaoh, and expect a late-night visit by one of these.
*Rogue = Stealthy lil' expert dude. As usual.
*Sorcerer = Pharaoh. Unless you've got the blood of gods, this class is unavailable to you. These are the guys who rule the world, rightfully.
*Wizard = Librarian. Words are power, and these people know the power of words, inscriptions, and symbols. You name something, you gain it's power...

In general, people should be human. Elves could be cast as outsiders from the desert or the plains to the north. Dwarves should probably be friends of rocky cliffs. Gnomes could be nomads, traders and generalists. Halflings could be a slave-race, or a race of desert raiders. I can't think of many races offhand who would be good in an Egyptian setting...maybe serpent-people (Lizardmen, ECL +2), if you'd like.

 

[Gez]

Fauns are ECL +1 ? I found them balanced enough for ECL 0... Less powerful in most respects than, say, an elf; their biggest boon is the fact they're not humanoid and thus immune to the "[verb] person" spells.

 

[Ghostwind]

I'm curious to know how they dealt with the vastness of the Egytpian pantheon. I guess they just detail a small subset.

We tackled the most prominent of the Egyptian Gods and a couple of the lesser known ones. 17 gods in all with 13 new domains, 38 spells, 19 artifacts, 6 monsters and 5 prestige classes. Bastion Press made Egyptian Gods became available sometime over the night, but unlike Norse Gods, this one costs $5.99.

 

[Desdichado]

William Ronald:
There was the Glory of Rome Historical Reference book. I believe it treated all or most Roman deities as lawful neutral. (The Romans tried to "clean up" much of the Greek mythos that they adapted.)

It's actually a myth (pun only slightly intentional) that the Romans "adapted" the Greek mythology as their own, with a few name changes and cleaning up the worst of the myths.

The Romans had their own traditional mythology. There were a lot of initial similarities to the Greek mythology (both descended from common late Indo-European mythology somewhere in Eastern Europe before they split and became seperate populations) and because the Greeks were the first truly "civilized" culture in the area, the Romans also threw out some ties to show themselves as the successors to the Greek tradition.

In addition, the Romans adopted a lot of other eastern religious ideas into their own system (the spread of Christianity being the most notable -- and final -- example of this) including a very wide-spread mystery cult of Mithras, for example. But their baseline wasn't a "cleaned up" Greek mythology, it was an honest-to-goodness Roman mythology.

 

[mmadsen]

I need specific classes for an Egypt campaign and a Greece campaign. Can anyone help?

I'm still not clear on what's wrong with Fighter and Rogue. That should cover almost everything you need.

Herakles, with his bouts of madness, makes a surprisingly good Barbarian. Orpheus makes a good Bard, but I'd make Bard a prestige class, and I'd rule that Bards cast Divine magic.

In fact, I may make all spellcasting classes Prestige Classes and all magic Divine. And while priests should figure prominently, I don't think they should be the armored healers of D&D. That's your real issue, I think -- not classes, but magic. What should the spell lists look like? Should casters prepare spells in spell slots? Should spellcasters even be allowed at first level? Oh, and remember that there are no books yet, so no spellbooks...

Meta: How is this off topic? And why three question marks before and after your question? Is it that puzzling?

 

[bmcdaniel]

Greek-flavored classes from my Heroic Greek campaign

Hmm, seems to be a lot of interest about this recently. Well, anyway, following is the class write-up section from my Heroic Greece campaign book. Note that this campaign takes place prior to Classical Greece, so a lot of the Greek cliches don't apply.

---------------------------------------------------------
Classes
Following classes are generally available: Athlete, Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Fighter, Priest, and Rogue. The NPC classes are also available to everyone. The Wizard class is available to Mesopotamians and the Sorcerer class is available to a very few human female devotees of Hecate. There are no prestige classes.
The Athlete class is a new base class that replaces monks. Athletes are dedicated to the Greek ideal of the human body by physical training.
The Priest class is a new base class that replaces clerics with a divine spellcaster that is more representative of Greek and Mediterranean myths. It also picks up some of the slack from the unavailable Wizard /Sorcerer classes.

Barbarian
The barbarian class is culturally based. Starting Barbarians must be from a barbarian culture and characters cannot multiclass into the barbarian class unless they have contact with an appropriate culture.
Class Skills: Barbarians, other than Scythians, should strongly consider switching out the Riding skill for another class skill since horses are generally unavailable to non-Scythians.
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Note that the Barbarian’s Martial Weapon Proficiency is dependent upon culture. See the Weapons, Armor and Equipment section.

Bards
Bards are divine spellcasters that emphasize an oral, individualistic tradition in contrast to the literate, civilized, settled and communitarian priests. In Greece especially, bards tend to associate with the older chthonic druidic tradition that has survived in Arcadia and other unsettled lands, although they are drawn to audiences in the cities.
Skill Points: 6 + Int bonus per level.
Magic: Bards are considered divine casters, although there are no other game effects.
Spells: The following spells on the Bard list are changed or new:
1. Expeditious Retreat, Identify
2. Gust of Wind
3. Blind Lust, Greater Sleep, Scrying
4. Conceal Lies
5.
6. Greater Scrying


Druids
Druids are divine spellcasters that represent pre-civilized, i.e. barbarian, ways of spellcasting. When nomadic peoples acquire agriculture and settle down, the druidic tradition tends to be usurped by priests. Druids may or may not characterize divine magic as coming from gods.
In Greece, the druidic tradition has survived as a parallel chthonic tradition alongside the priestly tradition (although relations between priests and druids are poor). Druids recognize a chthonic side to many Greek gods, including Ga, Zeus, Hades, Poseidon, Dionysus and Demeter; however these gods are seen as forces of nature rather than personalities.
Spells: The following spells on the Druid list are changed or new:
All. Summon Nature’s Ally
0. Depth Finder, Flame Picture, Summon Small Creature
1. Animate Mist, Speed Swim
2. False Tracks, Mark of Air, Mark of Earth, Mark of Fire, Mark of Frost, Mark of Water
3. Cave of the Mounds, Cavern Close, Earthripple, Earthwave
4. Black Mulching, Greater Mark of Air, Greater Mark of Earth, Greater Mark of Fire, Greater Mark of Frost, Greater Mark of Water, Scrying
5. Gutroot, Vine Mine
6. Crumble, Greater Call Lightning, Whirlpool
7. Elemental Body, Greater Scrying, Harm, Shifting Paths, Stormrage
8. Permanent Season
9. Volcanic Eruption


Fighter
Class Skills: Fighters should strongly consider switching out the Riding skill for another class skill since horses are generally unavailable (Handle Animal is used for charioteering); Diplomacy would be a good choice for leaders or city founders.
Martial Weapon Proficiency: Note that the Fighter’s Martial Weapon Proficiency is dependent upon culture. See the Weapons, Armor and Equipment section.
Heavy Shield Proficiency: Fighters receive the Heavy Shield Proficiency which allows them to use the Hoplon shield.

Rogue
Weapon Proficiency: To accommodate the different weapons available, the Rogue’s weapon list is modified to include the sling and exclude the crossbow. The complete list is: club, dagger (any type), dart, heavy mace, light mace, morningstar, quarterstaff, rapier (masterwork only), sap, shortbow (normal only), sling, and short sword.

Sorcerer
Sorcerery is extremely rare. Only female devotees of Hecate can be sorcerers. Sorcerers must choose a theme, and all their spells must strictly adhere to this theme; example themes would be enchantment, fire magic, shapechanging. DM will have final approval over all spell selections.

Wizard
Wizards are extremely rare, and generally not available to PCs. Wizardry is openly taught only in Babylon; although some believe that the Babylonians learned it from a secret Egyptian cult.

NPC Classes
The NPC classes Aristocrat, Commoner, Expert, and Warrior are also available.
The Warrior gains the Heavy Shield Proficiency feat.
Heavy Shield Proficiency: Warriors receive the Heavy Shield Proficiency which allows them to use the Hoplon shield.
[The Aristocrat gains bonus feats at 1st, 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th and 20th levels. In addition, he gains the Leadership feat for free at 6th level.]


Athlete

Athletes are the Greeks who train their bodies for sport and physical perfection. They do not specifically train for war, although some of their sports are war-like. The major sports Athletes train for are chariot racing, discus, javelin, jumping, pankration (boxing), running, weight-lifting, and wrestling; but they also trained to keep their bodies in peak physical condition generally. Athletes often compete in the Olympian, Pythian, Nemean and Isthmian Games.
BAB: Athletes have a split BAB. Athletes use the Fighter (Good) BAB only when wearing Light or no armor, not using a shield and for grappling, unarmed strike, and the following weapons: Dagger, Club, Halfspear, Quarterstaff, Shortspear (two-handed), Greatclub, Sling, and Javelin. At all other times, Athletes use the Rogue (Medium) BAB.
Hit Die: d8.
Armor and Weapon Proficiency: Athletes are proficient in the following weapons: Dagger, Club, Halfspear, Quarterstaff, Shortspear (two-handed), Greatclub, Sling, and Javelin. Athletes are proficient in Light Armor, but no shields.
Saving Throws: Athletes have good Fortitude and Reflex Saving Throws, and a poor Will Saving Throw.
Skill Points: 4 + Int bonus per level.
Class Skills: Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Jump (Str), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), Use Rope (Dex).



Level Special BAB BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1. +1 +0 +2 +2 +0 Endurance, Canny Wrestling
2. +2 +1 +3 +3 +0 Dodge, Fast Movement +10
3. +3 +2 +3 +3 +1 Wrestling Damage x2
4. +4 +3 +4 +4 +1
5. +5 +3 +4 +4 +1 Leap of the Clouds
6. +6/+1 +4 +5 +5 +2 Ability Increase
7. +7/+2 +5 +5 +5 +2 Pankration, Wrestling Entry
8. +8/+3 +6/+1 +6 +6 +2
9. +9/+4 +6/+1 +6 +6 +3 Skill Mastery
10. +10/+5 +7/+2 +7 +7 +3 Ability Increase, Wrestling Avoid
11. +11/+6/+1 +8/+3 +7 +7 +3 Fast Movement +20
12. +12/+7/+2 +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 Wrestling Damage x3
13. +13/+8/+3 +9/+4 +8 +8 +4 Special Ability
14. +14/+9/+4 +10/+5 +9 +9 +4 Ability Increase
15. +15/+10/+5 +11/+6/+1 +9 +9 +5
16. +16/+11/+6/+1 +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5 Special Ability
17. +17/+12/+7/+2 +12/+7/+2 +10 +10 +5
18. +18/+13/+8/+3 +13/+8/+3 +11 +11 +6 Ability Increase
19. +19/+14/+9/+4 +14/+9/+4 +11 +11 +6 Special Ability
20. +20/+15/+10/+5 +15/+10/+5 +12 +12 +6 Fast Movement +30, Wrestling Damage x4


Endurance: The Athlete gains the Endurance feat.
Canny Wrestling: When wrestling, the Athlete adds his Int modifier to AC.

Dodge: At level 2, the Athlete gains the Dodge feat when wearing Light or no armor

Fast Movement: Starting at level 2, the Athlete has a speed faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet when wearing no armor or light armor (and not carrying a heavy load). This speed increases to +20 feet at level 11 and +30 feet at level 20.

Wrestling Damage: At level 3, an Athlete can do normal damage (rather than subdual damage) without any penalties while Damaging an Opponent during Grappling. In addition, whether or not he is doing normal or subdual damage, an Athlete’s damage increases from 1d3+Str modifier to 1d3+2*Str modifier. This damage increases to 1d3+3*Str modifier at level 12 and 1d3+4*Str modifier at level 20. This damage only applies if the Athlete is wearing Light armor or no armor.

Ability Increase: At levels 6,10,14, and 18, the Athlete gets a free ability score increase. This increase can only be applied to Strength, Dexterity or Constitution.

Leap of the Clouds: At level 5 and higher, an Athlete’s jumping distance (vertical or horizontal) is not limited according to her height.

Wrestling Entry: At level 7, when an Athlete chooses to initiate a grapple and suffers an attack of opportunity, the Athlete can choose to enter the grapple regardless of whether he sustained damage from the attack of opportunity.

Pankration: At level 7, an Athlete fighting unarmed gains the benefits of the Improved Unarmed Strike feat and thus does not provoke attacks of opportunity from armed opponents that she attacks.

Skill Mastery: When he reaches level 10, the Athlete selects a number of skills equal to 3 + Intelligence modifier from the list of Class Skills, not including Perform and Profession. When making a skill check with one of these skills, the Athlete may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent him from doing so.

Wrestling Avoid: At level 12, when an Athlete chooses to initiate a grapple he can negate the normal attack of opportunity by making a successful tumble check with DC 15 + opponent’s BAB. This ability is only usable if the Athlete is wearing Light armor or no armor.

Special Ability: At levels 13, 16 and 19 the Athlete chooses a special ability from among the following: Evasion (as a Rogue); Skill Mastery (as the level 10 ability), Improved Evasion (as the Rogue special ability, Evasion is a prerequisite), Improved Dodge (when using the Dodge feat, replace the +1 modifier with Dex mod) or any feat.

Priests

Priests are the penultimate divine spellcasters. They are literate, community-oriented and civilized, and they are found among peoples who value these characteristics. Settled communities automatically generate priests, and some civilizations have purposefully expanded their populations to increase the power and number of priests; the Egyptian pharaohs are an extreme example.

Alignment: A Priest’s alignment must be within two steps of his patron deity (some deities have stricter requirements) and he cannot be neutral unless his patron deity is.

BAB: Priests use the Wizard (Poor) BAB.
Hit Die: d6.
Armor and Weapon Proficiency: Priests are proficient in all Simple weapons. Priests are proficient in Light Armor, but no shields. A Priest who chooses the War domain gains the Martial Weapon Proficiency feat related to his patron deity’s weapon for free, as well as the Weapon Focus feat related to that weapon, and Shield proficiency.
Saving Throws: Priests have a good Will Saving Throw, and poor Fortitude and Reflex Saving Throws.
Skill Points: 4 + Int bonus per level.
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (Int), Profession (Wis), Scry (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Speak Language, Spellcraft (Int).
A Priest may gain additional class skills by selecting certain domains: Animal (Handle Animal); Discord (Intimidate); Herald (Intimidate); Fear (Intimidate); Hunting (Wilderness Lore); Music (Perform); Travel (Wilderness Lore); Trickery (Disguise and Hide); and Wealth (Appraise).

Spells: Priests cast spells just like Clerics, including the spell table, spell selection, regaining spells and ability to cast while armored.

Spells: The following spells on the Priest list are changed or new:
All. Summon Monster
0. Animate Body Part, Depth Finder, Locate Mislaid Object, Planar Test
1. Animate Dead Plant, Buoy, Identify, Loresight (Creature) Loresight (Object), Zone of Confession
2. Bestow Minor Curse, Static Veil
3. Decree, Paranoia, Wall of Light
4. Secret Confidence
5. Conceal Lies, Passage to Hades, Scrying
6. Harm
7. Greater Scrying, Passage to Deep Hades, Scrybite
8. Capsize, Mass Paranoia, Symbol
9. Mantle of Egregious Might, Passage to Deepest Hades

Spontaneous Casting: Priests can spontaneously convert ordinary (non-domain) spells, into the following spells: either Cure Wounds or Inflict Wounds spells (depending on the Priest’s alignment); any domain spell; Detect Magic, Dispel Magic, and Greater Dispelling.

Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1. +0 +0 +0 +2 Turn or rebuke undead, Domains
2. +0 +0 +0 +3
3. +1 +1 +1 +3
4. +1 +1 +1 +4
5. +2 +1 +1 +4 Bonus Feat
6. +2 +2 +2 +5
7. +3 +2 +2 +5
8. +3 +2 +2 +6
9. +4 +3 +3 +6
10. +5 +3 +3 +7 Bonus Feat
11. +5 +3 +3 +7
12. +6/+1 +4 +4 +8
13. +6/+1 +4 +4 +8
14. +7/+2 +4 +4 +9
15. +7/+2 +5 +5 +9 Bonus Feat
16. +8/3 +5 +5 +10
17. +8/3 +5 +5 +10
18. +9/4 +6 +6 +11
19. +9/4 +6 +6 +11
20. +10/5 +6 +6 +12 Bonus Feat


Turn or Rebuke Undead: Priests can turn or rebuke undead. This ability works just like the cleric ability. As a feat, a Priest may take

Extra Turning. This feat allows the Priest to turn undead four more times per day than normal. A Priest can take this feat multiple times, gaining four extra daily turning attempts each time.

Domains: At level 1, Priests can select two domains and gain access to its special ability and spells. A Priest can select his domains from those offered by his patron deity, those offered through a deity associated with his patron deity, and (at first level only) a domain offered by his home city’s patron deity; but at all times, at least half of the Priest’s domains must be offered by his patron deity. A priest can use up to two of his Bonus Feats (but not regular feats) to take additional domains.

Bonus Feats: Every five levels, a Priest gains a bonus feat. This feat must be a metamagic feat, an item creation feat, a Divine feat, Extra Turning, or an additional domain.

NPC Priests and Virtual Experience: NPC priests can get “virtual xp.” The number of xp depends on the size and quality of their congregants. The Egyptian pharaohs and Ashur priest-kings are constantly trying to expand their empires to bring more worshippers under their sway and increase their own power. In Greece, the city-states’ small size (and the priests’ detachment from the politics) restricts priests to a more moderate level.

 

[William Ronald]

Joshua,

I know that Roman mythology exists independently of Greek mythology. (I have read the Golden Bough.) To me, the amusing thing was the degree that Rome -- center of military might - tried to draw parallels between itself and Greece. There was a lot of identification of deities and adoption of deities. To a certain extent, I think the Romans wanted to establish themselves as the logical successors to the civilized Greeks. So, adopting and adapting their culture was logical. So, the old saying that Rome conquered Greece, but that Greek culture nearly conquered Rome has some degree of truth. (Overtime, the distinctions blurred, and some Roman deities such as Quirinius became increasingly identified with other gods. This is not too surprising, as Apollo took the place of Helios in Greek mythology. Egyptian mythology, also changed over time.)

Hmm, I wondered if the Greeks thought imitation was the sincerest form of flattery?

As for mystery cults, they were quite prominent in room. Cybele and Mithras, especially.

As for priests with elective offices, a possible fantasy compromise is to have all candidates be priests of the deity in question. The winner can be chosen by the traditional process.

 

[I'm A Banana]

You'll probably have no problems with a +0 ECL faun. I just prefer to overcompensate in case their's something I'm missing.

My first diagnosis says +0 ECL. Only my safety mouse makes me go with +1.

And the greek/roman myth deelie?

Yeah, the Romans had their own and then decided that they were the heirs to a great history, and drew parallells between them and Greece.

As it started, there's a lot of support for the theory that some Greek colonies in Italy back in the day influenced the native population enough that many of the gods were similar in purpose anyway.

But Roman deities were far less anthropomorphic than Greek ones. They were more animistic, more embodiments of force and not actual people on a mountain somewhere.

 

[Desdichado]

William Ronald, exactly right about the Romans wanting to be seen as the heirs, if you will, of the old Greek hegemony over the Mediterranean area. But there were some real striking differences. Mars and Ares, for example, were really different in character -- Ares was consistently portrayed as a childish, selfish punk, the worst aspects of war, while Mars was a dignified warrior.

In addition, the Greeks were a source of ridicule at times to the Romans. Julius Caesar, before the triumvirate became a reality, was lambasted by his rivals in the Senate as being a "man-lover" because of his association with the Greeks (after an extended trip through the area.) To the Roman mentality, the Greeks morality was bankrupt. Julius Caesar himself later mocked his rivals as the triumvirate collapsed by ridiculing the military prowess of the "easterners" who would have wet themselves trying to fight Celts.