[OT] Girls who can beat you up

[Ashtal]

This sort of gets at the crux of my question. Yes, it's good that women aren't passive victims and the like, but this uniformity of interest in women who for some reason must be physically superior to men is what I'm curious about. In some circles, the focus seems to be on the fact that you want this woman, and she can beat you up, and that's why you want her. I've seen the phrase in several genre publications, "Best of all, she can kick your ass!"

[snip]

And I do think it's good that these women aren't just victims. At the same time, most of them seem to have to suffer horribly in order to gain this traditionally male power. Max is subject to blinding eplieptic fits, everyone Buffy loves dies or has something horrible happen to them, by the end of the Alien series, Ripley is barely human, and so on.

I think ass-kicking is a pretty broad term ... I don't always equate ass-kicking with knocking out your teeth. For me it speaks more to holding your own, contributing to the group, being your own person. The women of Buffy for example are not all ass-kickers - but are all strong and individual characters who contribute more than just being people in peril to be rescued.

As for suffering - I think you have to separate that from the fact that they are female characters. If your main characters don't suffer in some way, be they male or female, then you don't really have a story. I doubt you'd find any strong literary character who doesn't suffer and struggle long and hard through the telling of their tale. We want them to rise above those hardships. If they didn't, why would we be watching?

 

[VoodooGroves]

Most gamers prefer Willow. I'm sure someone has done a study.

As a long time fan of BtVS, a few things leap to mind on this topic. Sure, all the actresses are pretty. Its Hollywood. I think they go out on a limb as far as their little (beep beep beep beep) will take them but honestly, no one is going to dispute that the mix of "body types" in TV or movies is not the same mix as in real life.

That said, I enjoy Buffy for the writing / dialog / situations. Even if she were cast with a more "normal" girl, I'd still love it (although I'd bet money it would not have the same fan following and would have been canned after the first or second season).

So, why do we like it? Every show has the hotties...and many are more scantily clad (Cleopatra 2525 anyone?). Got to be the writing, character development. Hell, the people that I know who watch Buffy alot have a near soap-opera mentality about it. Their fascination is more with the character interactions, themes, etc. The eye-candy is ... well ... gravy ... at this point.

Just remember...

Dawn: You'll never guess what happened at school today!
Buffy: Everyone broke into song?
Dawn (annoyed Buffy guessed): No, I gave birth to a pterodadcyl.
Anya: Oh my god...did it sing?

And this is why we watch.

 

[Leopold]

I'm trying to figure out what it is specifically about a woman's ability to beat you up that would in itself be something that's interesting. Someone else suggested that physical prowess indicated sexual hunger. Whether that's the answer or not, that's the kind of thing I'm most curious in.

And I do think it's good that these women aren't just victims. At the same time, most of them seem to have to suffer horribly in order to gain this traditionally male power. Max is subject to blinding eplieptic fits, everyone Buffy loves dies or has something horrible happen to them, by the end of the Alien series, Ripley is barely human, and so on.

sexual hunger described above is similar to a female in heat in the animal realm. She wants something, she eminating phermones, therefore she is going to get it no matter what. This is a rare and wonderful growing trend among women (i believe, i am a guy but see this more and more when i go out on the town). Finding women who KNOW what they want, KNOW that they CAN get it, and HUNGER to get it with drive parallel to a man's drive is refreshing. A meek, modest, closeted woman would repulse me as that to me does not emphasize a zest for life,. passion in any regard, and a willlingness to do what it takes to get the job done that's what floats my boat.

As for ripley, i am in awe of her. If they put a man in her role , he couldn't even stack up to 1/10 the heroine that she was. If you watch the unedited Aliens2 movie you will see that it is a DRASTICALLY differnet movie. You really do feel for Elen Ripley and what she goes through, but in the end she is the gung-ho, geterdone that some guys love..

 

[Ashtal]

Re: Tough Women & Starship Troopers

The director had planned for the pilot character to be the ideal woman of modern times- someone who did not allow romance to hold back her career, and was willing to end a relationship to pursue her own dreams.

He also figured the other marine, the one with the red hair, was more of an example of women in the past. A women willing to follow the man she loved.

However- the test screenings had the total opposite reaction - people hated the pilot character and really like the female marine with the red hair.

Oh, I love Director commentary on DVDs!! Thanks for the heads-up ... I'll have to check them both.

I remember liking both characters, but I can understand why the test audience turned on him. Let's face it ... in many ways, romance as a woman's primary concern/goal in life is still how a lot of us were raised. I would love to have seen the split in gender and age groups for the test screenings.

Dang it ... now I gotta go rent Starship Troupers!!!

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: Tough Women & Starship Troopers

Dang it ... now I gotta go rent Starship Troupers!!!

I don't recall him giving actual figures, but I suppose one could contact the company and ask to see them.

Another interesting aspect of the commentary is the director grew up during WWII and wanted this film to be a warning against facism.

He was a bit shocked/horrified when the reaction from the audiance was support for the human society protrayed in the movie.

FD

 

[Ashtal]

Heh. Willow.

She, too, is one of my favorites, but interestingly enough:

When she was first cast (and you can find the pilot floating around on the Internet), the actress was heavier. I'm not sure why she wasn't kept (and I would have hated to miss out on AH, who brought such a depth of geeky truth to her character), but I'd bet on the network executives who didn't want to break out of typical television trends.

Why do I think that? (And yes, it's purely conjecture on my part.)

Because of something Joss Whedon said on one of the audio commentaries on the DVDs. They had a heck of a time dressing Willow. They wanted her to look geeky, dressed down, if not ineptly, and the network peeps really didn't like that. They were constantly sending blips of "dress her cuter, sexier! Why are you dressing her this way?" His answer "because it's Willow" never really satisfied them.

I don't expect Hollywood or Televison to start, en masse, showing people how they really look like. It would burst their little arteries. But at least there are some shows that try to show a depth and range of character types. I'll take what I can get.

 

[Ashtal]

Re: Re: Re: Tough Women & Starship Troopers

Another interesting aspect of the commentary is the director grew up during WWII and wanted this film to be a warning against facism.

He was a bit shocked/horrified when the reaction from the audiance was support for the human society protrayed in the movie.

FD

Really? That's what I loved about the movie - as a cautionary tale against propaganda and the society that used it to control its people. I know that was only a small portion of the book the movie is based on, but I thought they did remarkably well in bringing that into focus for the movie (which, from what I understand, would have been impossible to cover the entire book anyway ...).

Okay, now I REALLY have to get my hands on the DVD. I have a mission!

 

[Leopold]

Re: Tough Women & Starship Troopers

The director had planned for the pilot character to be the ideal woman of modern times- someone who did not allow romance to hold back her career, and was willing to end a relationship to pursue her own dreams.

He also figured the other marine, the one with the red hair, was more of an example of women in the past. A women willing to follow the man she loved.

However- the test screenings had the total opposite reaction - people hated the pilot character and really like the female marine with the red hair.

Of course, some of that may have to do with acting, but.. *shrug*

You may want to give it a rent and hear precisely what the guy has to say on the matter.

FD

dizzy was the red head and carmen was the pilot. Johnny was the person in question (the space marine). The book had NOTHING like this in it but i digress.

Dizzy was more of a down home get her man kind of gal, whilst carmen the pilot was the corporate, career minded type putting her job first, life second. You can releate to dizzy just as a normal everyday, average girl. Whilst carmen seemed snooty, arrogant, and just downright uncaring.

I loved dizzy for more reasons than i can list here (shower scene!) and she's a redhead, but in the end you can relate to her more and emphasize more with her than you can with carmen.

 

[Leopold]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Tough Women & Starship Troopers

Really? That's what I loved about the movie - as a cautionary tale against propaganda and the society that used it to control its people. I know that was only a small portion of the book the movie is based on, but I thought they did remarkably well in bringing that into focus for the movie (which, from what I understand, would have been impossible to cover the entire book anyway ...).

Okay, now I REALLY have to get my hands on the DVD. I have a mission!

facism? You are talking about Starship troopers here, and the funny part is it was writen by a navy man writing tales about the modern marines. The author wrote several books, i forget his name, but one good one was called Friday. It stars a female assassin who goes through life knowing she is a cyborg and her troubles and tribulations on the way. It's a great book and easy read into the female mind of the kind you are looking for RobNJ.

But for starship troopers showing how propoganda controls the people is accurate, we in the US did it in WWII very well and it worked. Doing it again in the future makes sense. Although I don't remember it being prevalent in the book as much...I must read it again, it's a great book. Robert Heinlein is the author!

 

[Furn_Darkside]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Tough Women & Starship Troopers

Robert Heinlein is the author!

Ack.. can't resist further hijack..

Heinlein is an interesting author- he seems to have two different type of fiction:

1) entertaining
2) commentary

The latter is where some of his more severe view points seem to poke through.

He is still a good author, though.

FD