[OT] Hero System Fifth Ed Review

[Rinndalir]

Hmmm. Here's my problem...I'm fed up with 3rd ed D&D as my fantasy gaming system, and I want a system that is both classless and capable of doing freeform magic. Ideally said system would be d20, not because d20 is the best but because I have a ton of source material to draw from and it's what my players know best.

So far I've been testing out a classless/level based d20 system and working on a magic system based on Mongoose's Chaos Magic. However, I'm not opposed to switching systems and given my irrational hatred of GURPS and Whitewolf's inability to do high fantasy (except for Exalted, but no freeform magic, so that's out) HERO seems like a nice alternative. I don't mind doing math for players in character creation (hell, I shouldn't, I have a degree in the stuff ) but the system MUST be able to play fast. Which, granted, 3e really isn't fast it's just that I know the rules in and out, another of my players is also a guru, and several of us can do math in our heads for those who get tripped up by it.

That said, I'm seriously considering buying HERO 5th just to read, even if I'm never gonna use it.

 

[Galfridus]

Hmmm. Here's my problem...I'm fed up with 3rd ed D&D as my fantasy gaming system, and I want a system that is both classless and capable of doing freeform magic. Ideally said system would be d20, not because d20 is the best but because I have a ton of source material to draw from and it's what my players know best.

Hero isn't going to win in either of these categories.

...HERO seems like a nice alternative. I don't mind doing math for players in character creation (hell, I shouldn't, I have a degree in the stuff ) but the system MUST be able to play fast. Which, granted, 3e really isn't fast it's just that I know the rules in and out, another of my players is also a guru, and several of us can do math in our heads for those who get tripped up by it.

When you know Hero, it runs fast -- but even then, combats take longer than 3E. To some extent it's self-adjusting; in most Hero games, there are fewer "random" combats.

You can also streamline a lot of stuff out of Hero to make it run faster, though personally I prefer keeping it all in.

That said, I'm seriously considering buying HERO 5th just to read, even if I'm never gonna use it.

I'd definitely recommend this; even if you just get ideas for your own magic system it'll be worth the read.

 

[paqman]

Hmmm. Here's my problem...I'm fed up with 3rd ed D&D as my fantasy gaming system, and I want a system that is both classless and capable of doing freeform magic. Ideally said system would be d20, not because d20 is the best but because I have a ton of source material to draw from and it's what my players know best.

You know, I have been playing d20 games only, since it came out, and I caught the Dungeonite sickness. All our games are on D20, Mediaval (DnD), contemporary(A king of hybrid Supers) and Sci-fantasy (dragonstar) and I feel that it is too much. So after much debates 2 weeks ago, we switched the supers game to a Hero games. We converted the character pretty faithfully and it blew a wind of change in our games. So now we don't only have d20 games. We feel much better.

I don't mind doing math for players in character creation (hell, I shouldn't, I have a degree in the stuff ) but the system MUST be able to play fast.

For the creation, you will do math, but don't expect anything too difficult. It's as simple as multiplying 50 * 1.25, or dividing 25 by 2.75. etc... After each power, skills and stats are fleshed out, it is only a matter of adding all the points and your done.

What I consider long in character creation is not really the math, it is the amount of options open to you. You can virtually build ANY powers. So this, when creating your character, is a hell of a problem. In the past, when someone started a new game, it even took me weeks to make my character, because I would need to make about 10 of them and then choose, with much difficulties, one when starting the game. The options are as much as your imagination can devise. This is a big plus, and character creation is sheer pleasure for me.

In action, when you really know the rules, it is long, but not too long. If you fight beween equals, you could go to 1 or 2 hours. If you fight with a lot of opponents (Like a big bunch of low powered goons with their strong masters (king of a climactic battle)) It could take a while longer. But hey, its fun. And BTW, climactic batles, in dnd3rd often take 1 or 2 hours also. So it is not really different in time, only in mechanics.

That said, I'm seriously considering buying HERO 5th just to read, even if I'm never gonna use it.

Go ahead my friend, I am sure you won't be disapojnted.

 

[gustavef]

Hmmm. Here's my problem...I'm fed up with 3rd ed D&D as my fantasy gaming system, and I want a system that is both classless and capable of doing freeform magic. Ideally said system would be d20, not because d20 is the best but because I have a ton of source material to draw from and it's what my players know best.

So far I've been testing out a classless/level based d20 system and working on a magic system based on Mongoose's Chaos Magic. However, I'm not opposed to switching systems and given my irrational hatred of GURPS and Whitewolf's inability to do high fantasy (except for Exalted, but no freeform magic, so that's out) HERO seems like a nice alternative. I don't mind doing math for players in character creation (hell, I shouldn't, I have a degree in the stuff ) but the system MUST be able to play fast. Which, granted, 3e really isn't fast it's just that I know the rules in and out, another of my players is also a guru, and several of us can do math in our heads for those who get tripped up by it.

That said, I'm seriously considering buying HERO 5th just to read, even if I'm never gonna use it.

Well, go and find yourself Ars Magica. 8*)

One of the best Free form magic systems (IMHO). And if you look carefully it realy is very close to a d20 system. (Attibutes go from -5 to +5 and greater, skills add to your attibute, roll a die and add. Though it is based off an open ended d10 instead of a d20.)

In fact you can almost lift out the Ars Magic Magic system and place it in DnD. Ever level of "Wizard" gives you X points for Techniques/Forms and Y points for Spells. (I don't know what I would make X and Y)

-gustavef

 

[Glyfair]

When you know Hero, it runs fast -- but even then, combats take longer than 3E. To some extent it's self-adjusting; in most Hero games, there are fewer "random" combats.

You can also streamline a lot of stuff out of Hero to make it run faster, though personally I prefer keeping it all in.

In my experience while this is true in a Champions superhero combat, it doesn't necessarily hold true in a Fantasy Hero level campaign. Combats there run about the same speed as 3E. Maybe epic combats take longer, but simple random encounter combats can be quicker.

Of course, this assumes a group who are comfortable with the system. It also assumes a group who will plan their action while it isn't their turn.

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Psion]

Not following you here. HERO uses a log scale for most things (+5 = x2) so the linear comment is a bit odd (unless you are refering to the cost structure).

That is exactly what I am referring to. One point of skill in hero costs one point. A point of skill in GURPS depends on how many points you already have.

The cost structure in HERO can afford to be linear due to the high-power levels it tends to deal with.

The cost scheme can afford to be linear because the GM puts a no-kidding cap on it.

It does this at a cost of realism (and playability) at the low end.

I don't know what you call the "low end", but I actually prefer HERO for heroic vice superheroic games, and find it works rather well.

 

[KDLadage]

Psion: Thanks for responding. But I still feel that the hero works comment was unfair.

Linear Point Scales: In HERO, skills were (as you stated) an afterthought. Thus, the 1 point in a skill costs you one point argument is a little unfair as well. Also, one has to look at the fact that a point in GURPS is not the same thing as a point in HERO.

In HERO, all character points are a measure of pure combative effectiveness and overall ability. Granted, balance between characters can be tough given the number of choices afforded players, but HERO does a damn good job melding the value of a point to be relatively even accross the board. Hero is a good game and handles its focus very well.

In GURPS, a character point represents a blend of two things -- effectiveness and time. For advantages / disadvantages / attributes, there is generally a a cost-to-effectiveness. For skills, it becomes a cost-to-time. The more time needed to learn a skill to a given level, the more it costs. This was a design choice -- and a valid one -- but not a reason to call the system convoluted in its application. It is a general double-cost to a plataue scheme that is quite intuitive, in my opinion. They are considering doing away with this in GURPS 4/e, and it makes me a bid sad to see the debate on it.

...no kidding cap on it...: your opinion, I suppose. Can't do much about that.

...low end and playability: again, your opinion and I am not here to change it. But in my opinion, the closer you come to "normal" humanity in HERO, the stranger the results of the game. These are simply due to design considerations (the game was originally designed to reasonably handle the likes of Spiderman and the Hulk, not Aunt Mae or David [Bruce] Banner). This does nto make HERO a bad system, it just means that a good GM needs to be aware of a few things.

Some of the things that have been noted over the history of the game (not sure about 5th edition, mine will not be here until Wednesday):

• A normal human can completely demolish a car in less than 60 seconds using nothing but his bare feet.
• A typical baby can throw a football over 80 meters.
• A character with a high speed score gets more actions per turn -- and thus can drive faster than someone with a low speed score (I cannot recall, but this may have been corrected in 4th edition).
• etc...

Now, before you go and list off a bunch of areas where GURPS breaks down, don't bother. I known them better than you, I would suspect. But most of the areas where it breaks down are as you move away from normal human capabilities, not as you approach them.

Although I have ran HERO games at the extreme low end, many rules simply had to be ignored for reality to pervail. And the same holds true for very high end GURPS.

Both are great systems. I like them both. But in my opinion, they each haev thier nitch. They each have thier zone in which they shine. They each have the areas where they start to falter.

YMMV, IMHO, yada yada yada....

 

[Michael Tree]

Hmmm. Here's my problem...I'm fed up with 3rd ed D&D as my fantasy gaming system, and I want a system that is both classless and capable of doing freeform magic.

Hero is technically capable of doing freeform magic, but doesn't do it especially well, let alone quickly.

I recommend Ars Magica. The game mechanics are very similar to D20's (go figure, both were created by Johnathan Tweet), which may help, but isn't level or class based, unless you consider the fact that some characters are magi and some are n't 'classes.' Ars has the best RPG magic system in creation, and tons of flavour. Actually, Ars has several of the best magic systems, if you include the non-hermetic magic traditions in the setting books, like the scottish Gruagachan, the norse Vitki (rune-masters), or the various types of hedge magicians. One of the things I like best is that different traditions or styles of magic actually work differently in game.

The only possible problems are that the system is more lethal than D&D, as it isn't geared to the same heroic level of play as D&D, and magi are very powerful in it, since the game is geared towards them. The latter can be helped by giving the magi less points in magic, and giving non-magi more virtues and skill points.

I don't mind doing math for players in character creation (hell, I shouldn't, I have a degree in the stuff ) but the system MUST be able to play fast.

I've never played Fantasy Hero, but Champions is by far the slowest combat system I have ever used, and I've used quite a few. That isn't because of lack of experience either - I've played Champions quite often, with all the shortcuts others have mentioned, and it's still cumbersome and slow.

That said, I'm seriously considering buying HERO 5th just to read, even if I'm never gonna use it.

Fair enough.

I feel the need to point out some of Hero's shortcomings and faults which havn't been mentioned yet.

1) Despite the hype, the Hero powers system isn't supremely flexible. For 95% of power concepts it works well, but for the other 5% it's abyssmally awful. Those 5% can still be technically done, but not at all elegantly or sussinctly.

2) The slowness in character creation isn't becuase the math calculations are difficult, it's because there are so damn many calculations to make, and much of the system is non-intuitive to those who havn't memorized the game from cover to cover. If Hero still makes the Heromaker software, buy it. I find the game all but unplayable without it.

3) Hero is not a good system for GMs who like playing fast and loose, or improvising. It's rigid structure has benefits, but also drawbacks, especially since it takes an hour or more to create a new character or monster.

4) The system doesn't encourage player creativity during the game. It's almost impossible to create 'power stunts' on the fly. By 'power stunts' I mean creative new uses of powers that are thought up during play. All PC powers must be bought and calculated during character creation or advancement, and no improvisation is possible during play, unless you have a power pool. This isn't a big concern for fantasy games, but is very important to me in superhero games.

 

[Rinndalir]

Well, go and find yourself Ars Magica.

Originally posted by Micheal Tree


I recommend Ars Magica.

I had actually considered this (I own the 3rd edition of the game) but there are a few problems. One, the game is geared towards playing a Magi, not a swordsman or a diplomat or what have you. Can be somewhat remidied by the number of points given though. Two, it's not really high fantasy. If I were to use Ars Magica it would be done by me ripping out the guts of the system and placing it in my campaign world, which is a high fantasy setting. Three, it can be fairly deadly...not a big problem though, in fact it may be a boon in that PCs won't be so eager to bash heads. The biggest problem though is Magi outshining non-Magi. (Well, a problem to be found in any game with freeform magic, but anyway...) I hadn't thought about porting it's system (it IS a thing of beauty, isn't it?) over to d20 though, I wonder if it could be done...

 

[Psion]

Psion: Thanks for responding. But I still feel that the hero works comment was unfair.

As you say, it was my opinion. I specifically put the flamebait tags on it to emphasize the tongue in cheek nature of the statement. I do find GURPS nadequate, but if you have fun with it, who am I to judge your experience?

Linear Point Scales: In HERO, skills were (as you stated) an afterthought. Thus, the 1 point in a skill costs you one point argument is a little unfair as well.

...

...no kidding cap on it...: your opinion, I suppose. Can't do much about that.

Um, these two where statements of how the system works not evaluations, so I don't see how this is an opinion.