(OT sort of) Help dealing with a player over the edge
- Thread starter Stone Angel
- Start date
DanMcS said:
I disagree with almost every individual point you said.
Worshipping St. Cuthbert is not a valid choice of religion. Neither is listing "Jedi Knight" as your religion and using vague Zen-ish Yoda quotes with bad grammar. I'm not saying that you have to choose an established religion. I'm not saying that you can't be touched by the principles espoused by some fictional deity or omnipresent force and seek to emulate those principles in real life. But basing your beliefs on something that was created as light entertainment is not a valid religious choice. It bespeaks someone with real-life issues, and it's not healthy.
As for seriousness, I don't know, and you don't know. Stone Angel will know more once he talks to the guy again. But a kid who gets picked on enough and has no life and isolates himself and only really comes out of his shell in the weekly D&D game -- well, yeah, he could get his worldview skewed enough to start getting serious. In which case, he needs help. Therapy, a break from D&D, a hobby involving interaction with other people, or something like that. He is potentially hurting himself, and it's not a huge leap from worshipping St. Cuthbert to thinking that he should club someone with a baseball bat because they're behaving dishonorably and in his mind he's being chivalrous.
I agree with the talking. Hopefully the guy's just joking, and it's a lucky charm kind of thing, done tongue-in-cheek.
-Tacky
Zappo
Explorer
We're talking about faith, which has no roots in the external world, but only within oneself. In my opinion, as long as he doesn't hurt anyone, he can worship whatever he likes. That's why I'm for talking and finding out if he isn't having some deeper problem - and if he hasn't, leave him be.
Can someone define exactly what makes a religion "valid" - with "valid" meaning "not automatically a symptom of madness"?
Can someone define exactly what makes a religion "valid" - with "valid" meaning "not automatically a symptom of madness"?
Oni
First Post
I suppose he could have chosen worse than ol' Cuthbert.
On a more serious note, for now I'd just talk to him and try to get and handled on whats really up. That's what I'd do, if for no other reason than curiousity. Once you've done that it'll probably be alot easier to determine what you should do, if anything.
On a more serious note, for now I'd just talk to him and try to get and handled on whats really up. That's what I'd do, if for no other reason than curiousity. Once you've done that it'll probably be alot easier to determine what you should do, if anything.
Zappo, I figured that I was going to get disagreement and people advocating freedom of religion and all that. And no derogatoritude is meant. Freedom of religion is good. It's very good. I like it a lot.
The short answer (since, um, I'm technically at work) is that I disagree with you. In part. I think that it IS possible to have complete faith in a religion you've invented yourself, even one that uses a philosophy you picked up from watching episodes of "Growing Pains" over and over again until blood was trickling out your ears. (I'm agreeing with you at this point.)
But (this is where I start disagreement -- not trying to be patronizing, just trying to keep the argument clean), worshipping something that was created specifically for entertainment or as a marketing ploy, in my opinion, does not pass muster. It shows a lack of ability to differentiate between the screen/page and the actual world. Without that ability, I don't think that faith is possible.
I'm sure someone will swing a dictionary definition of "faith" at me, but I'll stand by it nonetheless. Just as a creature who cannot differentiate between right and wrong cannot develop morality, a person who cannot differentiate between reality and entertainment cannot develop faith.
That's vague, I freely admit. And I'm sure there will be nitpicking, and what-ifs. What I'm saying is this:
There's a line.
I'm fallible. I don't know exactly where the line is.
Heck, maybe it's a strip and not a line -- maybe there are beliefs that work in certain situations for certain people. Some of my friends seem born to be Wiccans, while others would be directionless in life if they weren't Christian.
I can tell you that in my mind, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and such are all on one side of the line, along with people who meditate and listen to spirit animals and believe that everything has a soul, including their car. The GOOD side of the line.
And I can say with complete confidence that praying sincerely to a god in a D&D pantheon that someone else created for entertainment purposes is firmly on the other side of that line in UnhealthyLand.
If the kid was saying, "Cuthbert's ideals are cool, I'm gonna try and live like that," I'd be fine. From what Stone Angel said, that ain't what the kid is saying. Ergo, me having a problem.
-Tacky
EDIT: Looked more carefully at your post, Zapster, and you did ask if anyone can define a valid religion. I will confidently tell you that I can in no way at all do that. I personally feel it depends on the person. There are Christians who are really really really unhealthy about it, and there are Wiccans who are really really really unhealthy about it, and it messes up their lives. Maybe messing up your life is not a disqualification for being a valid religion, or maybe it is. I don't know. I don't know how to separate the healthy Catholics from the unhealthy Catholics -- which is why I'm not trying.
But I CAN confidently say that the 16-year-old worshipping Cuthbert has some real-life issues he needs to deal with before stuff goes wrong. Stone Angel asked. That's my opinion, and only my opinion, with no weight whatsoever behind it other than a pretty religious childhood and a bunch of meditation.
The short answer (since, um, I'm technically at work) is that I disagree with you. In part. I think that it IS possible to have complete faith in a religion you've invented yourself, even one that uses a philosophy you picked up from watching episodes of "Growing Pains" over and over again until blood was trickling out your ears. (I'm agreeing with you at this point.)
But (this is where I start disagreement -- not trying to be patronizing, just trying to keep the argument clean), worshipping something that was created specifically for entertainment or as a marketing ploy, in my opinion, does not pass muster. It shows a lack of ability to differentiate between the screen/page and the actual world. Without that ability, I don't think that faith is possible.
I'm sure someone will swing a dictionary definition of "faith" at me, but I'll stand by it nonetheless. Just as a creature who cannot differentiate between right and wrong cannot develop morality, a person who cannot differentiate between reality and entertainment cannot develop faith.
That's vague, I freely admit. And I'm sure there will be nitpicking, and what-ifs. What I'm saying is this:
There's a line.
I'm fallible. I don't know exactly where the line is.
Heck, maybe it's a strip and not a line -- maybe there are beliefs that work in certain situations for certain people. Some of my friends seem born to be Wiccans, while others would be directionless in life if they weren't Christian.
I can tell you that in my mind, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and such are all on one side of the line, along with people who meditate and listen to spirit animals and believe that everything has a soul, including their car. The GOOD side of the line.
And I can say with complete confidence that praying sincerely to a god in a D&D pantheon that someone else created for entertainment purposes is firmly on the other side of that line in UnhealthyLand.
If the kid was saying, "Cuthbert's ideals are cool, I'm gonna try and live like that," I'd be fine. From what Stone Angel said, that ain't what the kid is saying. Ergo, me having a problem.
-Tacky
EDIT: Looked more carefully at your post, Zapster, and you did ask if anyone can define a valid religion. I will confidently tell you that I can in no way at all do that. I personally feel it depends on the person. There are Christians who are really really really unhealthy about it, and there are Wiccans who are really really really unhealthy about it, and it messes up their lives. Maybe messing up your life is not a disqualification for being a valid religion, or maybe it is. I don't know. I don't know how to separate the healthy Catholics from the unhealthy Catholics -- which is why I'm not trying.
But I CAN confidently say that the 16-year-old worshipping Cuthbert has some real-life issues he needs to deal with before stuff goes wrong. Stone Angel asked. That's my opinion, and only my opinion, with no weight whatsoever behind it other than a pretty religious childhood and a bunch of meditation.
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A true religion is based upon a perceived actual contact with the divine --- either spiritual [feeling the presence of the divine] or physical [God becomes flesh].
If you have an epiphany which leads you to believe that something previously written by Gary Gygax as part of a game is both an accurate reflection of the true metaphysical structure of Creation and a divinely-sanctioned moral ethos....you have a problem.
If you have an epiphany which leads you to believe that something previously written by Gary Gygax as part of a game is both an accurate reflection of the true metaphysical structure of Creation and a divinely-sanctioned moral ethos....you have a problem.
N Hammer
First Post
First, my advise would be to talk to the kid's parents....Don't mess around, just talk to his parents.
Second, to those that say "don't worry about it, he ain't hurting nobody."...Let me ask you this....Is this kid somebody?..or nobody?
I have personally witness somebody bury themselves into D&D to get away from real world problems...I saw the person reach his breaking point, and watched him being taken to a place to have some quiet time..(he was under suicide watch)
D&D like TV, video games, and other things, can be used as a way to forget yourself...or try to reinvent yourself...
This may not be the case with the situation that started this thread...but isn't it better to be safe then sorry?
Second, to those that say "don't worry about it, he ain't hurting nobody."...Let me ask you this....Is this kid somebody?..or nobody?
I have personally witness somebody bury themselves into D&D to get away from real world problems...I saw the person reach his breaking point, and watched him being taken to a place to have some quiet time..(he was under suicide watch)
D&D like TV, video games, and other things, can be used as a way to forget yourself...or try to reinvent yourself...
This may not be the case with the situation that started this thread...but isn't it better to be safe then sorry?
Moe Ronalds
First Post
I remember hearing somewhere that St. Cuthbert is actually named after a saint from a real world religion. Maybe his buds just kind of distorted the truth? I could be wrong though.
Stone Angel
First Post
Once again not a troll(Thanks for the character witness Rel). You guys can relate to this. Anyway I just talked to another one of the older players. We have agreed to go to his house Sat. afternoon-evening and talk with him. Find out what he really thinks about this. Personally I don't care if he puts his faith in the pencil right in front of his face. I was more concerned with him loosing his grip on reality. I think that he has a few other "habits" that might make the situation a little more complex. So if the need be I will suggest that he might want to take a break and talk with his school counciler. Hopefully he does not. I would hate to lose a player like this.
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Wormwood
Adventurer
When I was a teenager, I payed lip service to Cthulhu.
Geeks are weird. He's just weirder.
I say relax and let him march to his drummer. He'll either adjust or degenerate, just like any of us.
Have you ever read anything from the golden age of Tolkien fandom? I liken certain 'zines from the mid-sixties to the work of Irish monks in the Dark Ages.
Geeks are weird. He's just weirder.
I say relax and let him march to his drummer. He'll either adjust or degenerate, just like any of us.
Have you ever read anything from the golden age of Tolkien fandom? I liken certain 'zines from the mid-sixties to the work of Irish monks in the Dark Ages.
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