[OT- Star Wars, possible spoilers] Was Darth Vader truly evil?

[Drakmar]

Okay.. Darth Vader is on the Dark Side.. the reason is he is willing to use the Force to kill. According to the Lucas World View of the Force...when you use ANY emotions to fuel you Force Powers you are being tempted by the dark side.. and When you use the "darker" emotions such as Anger and Hate.. you are definately fueling you powers with the Dark Side. I think the quote from a poster is.. "To be a Jedi, you must not know Anger, you must not know Hate, and you must not know Love" Basically to be a Good Jedi, you have to sacrifice your Humanity. Not a good deal in my mind.. just find a middle ground (even though Yoda.. who probably is the true Sith Lord considering the number of stuff ups he has made, has indicated the with the Force there is no middle ground) that you can walk.

Darth Maul is evil, because he embraces his Hate and his Anger...it fuels his passion. We may not see him do evil in the movie..but that is only because the oppurtunity has not presented itself..

Now.. the thing is.. Qui-Jon was a fool.. He finds the boy who will bring Balance to the Force.. hmm... in a time when the Jedi Council is in control.. the Sith have been dormant for 1000 years.. And Yoda.. is more of a fool...or the True Sith Lord.. because as David Brin in a review said.. he let a half trained Jedi (Obi-Wan) take Anakin as a Padawan rather than get him trained by the best Jedi instructor they had.. and in doing so it leads to the creation of Vader.. and the downfall of the Jedi Council and balance shifts from Good Guys on Top.. to Bad Guys on Top.... and the thing is.. Balance would really be.. Equal numbers/power levels of Light Siders to Dark Siders and the galaxy split fairly evenly with spots of peace and tranquility and spots of chaos and destruction.

whoops.. I rambled.. well.. there is my grand unified theory on the SW universe. gimme my purple light saber.

 

[Spiteful Dwarf]

Maybe the Jedi don't deserve to exist. They seem to have an iron-fisted tyrant's control on the religious/ quasi-religious powers of the universe. Sure, they may have millions of other faiths in the universe, but I'll bet you that none of them have the governmental influence that the Jedi do...

The whole backstory of Star Wars has the Jedi being the foundation of the Republic, and then you find out that the Republic is bound to fail because it's just as corruptible as the Jedi themselves are... The Jedi are the absolute powers in the universe, and with that absolute power comes absolute corruption in the end.

Funny how they never saw it coming, neh?

 

[Holy Bovine]

Now Darth Maul...what did HE do that was so evil? He looked evil. He was a student of the dark side. But all he did was single mindedly chase two jedi with the apparent purpose of engaging them in single combat. For that matter, he didn't mind letting them outnumber him 2-1. No torture. No threats. Waste of a cool character.

Now here's an even more important question - what the heck makes Darth maul so cool in the first place?

Dual Lightsaber?
Face Paint?
Little Horns?
Only says two lines in about 15 minutes of screen time? (he didn't even taunt Obi and Gi-Quan during their duel!)
Cool black skirt?

What could the answer be?

 

[LightPhoenix]

In defense of Darth Vader, had he not followed orders, it is very likely that Palpatine would have killed him. He could have resisted, but not very successfully for very long with any lasting impact. The only reason Luke prevailed was because the Emperor was playing with him and Vader caught him off guard. At any point, Palpatine could have killed them both easily.

Not that this makes him good, but his choices may have been out of a desire to live being stronger than that of morals, rather than being a sadistic bastard.

 

[LightPhoenix]

In defense of Darth Vader, had he not followed orders, it is very likely that Palpatine would have killed him. He could have resisted, but not very successfully for very long with any lasting impact. The only reason Luke prevailed was because the Emperor was playing with him and Vader caught him off guard. At any point, Palpatine could have killed them both easily.

Not that this makes him good, but his choices may have been out of a desire to live being stronger than that of morals, rather than being a sadistic bastard.

 

[Zhure]

Let me reposit this with a different slant.

Let us assume Anakin is the most powerful Force user ever up to that point, save perhaps Palpatine.

Anakin learns to use the Force under the inexpert tutelage of Obi-Wan, student of Qui-Gon, student of Count Dooku, student of Yoda. (Yes, Darth Vader is really Yoda's indirect student.)

Anakin is tempted by the Dark Side on a number of occasions and as his powers grow, he eventually becomes a precognitive of a level akin to the kwisatz haderach, Paul "Maud'dib" Atreides. He sees the actions necessary to free the Republic from it's mutual saprophytic relationship with the Jedi. The other futures he foresees leads to even worse possibilities.

His one viable option is to have his unborn son eventually succeed him as the new keeper of the Force. Luke is perceived as being the one who brings balance to the Force, but really it's Anakin under his guise as Darth Vader.

I think we'll find out that Anakin is actually a young clone of Palpatine, being groomed in a far away corner of the galaxy on Tattoine until he can become the Emperor's apprentice. This would explain the supernatural nature behind his birth.

This would also explain why Darth Vader never finds Luke Skywalker (same last name, same part of the planet, living with his relatives) and why he doesn't recognize Artoo and Threepio. Nor does he find Obi-Wan Kenobi, even though Ben Kenobi has been hiding there all along and is known to the natives. It's because Vader doesn't *want* to know any of this, or because he knew it all along with precognitive abilities.

To address some statements from earlier:

- Darth Vader didn't cut down a helpless Obi-Wan Kenobi. Old Ben intentionally let his guard down; Darth paused, then let him have it... maybe all preplanned to be within view of Luke.

- Leia's torture is never shown. She resists the chemicals and ministrations of a torture droid, then drops the information they want to Gran Moff Tarkin at his mere threat of using a weapon which Leia shouldn't even logically consider as a feasible threat. "There's no such weapon!"

Imagine if your torturer's said, "Tell us what we want to know or we'll fricasse everyone in Rhode Island! ::dramatic hiss::

"Yeah, sure, whatever."

- Vader didn't outrank Gran Moff Tarkin. He never ordered anyone to attack Beru and Owen, it's all assumption.

Other things that bother me: When did Anakin put on the growth spurt that made him the towering figure that is Darth Vader?

If all stormtroopers are clones of Jango Fett and Boba Fett is a clone of Jango Fett, shouldn't Vader know this? Why does he treat Boba Fett with such respect and why does Boba Fett act so protective of Vader in the scene where Han is frozen alive in carbomite?

Why does Yoda want to kick the most powerful Force sensitive individual (Anakin) in the galaxy out on the street and not train him? When he finally succumbs to the will of the Jedi Council, why does he have Obi-Wan train him? Is it because his training lineage is invested in Obi-Wan or is it because he secretly wants Obi-Wan and Anakin to fail?

This isn't a troll. I'm really confused as to a lot of what happens and why and the only explanation I've found that makes sense is that either Yoda is a complete idiot or that Vader is secretly trying to end the power of both the Sith and the Jedi.

 

[hong]

This isn't a troll.

This may or may not be a troll:

http://srogers.home.mindspring.com/starwars.html

 

[Black Omega]

To address some statements from earlier:
- Darth Vader didn't cut down a helpless Obi-Wan Kenobi. Old Ben intentionally let his guard down; Darth paused, then let him have it... maybe all preplanned to be within view of Luke.

I never said Obi-wan was helpless. He simply wasn't defending himself. He even turned off his lighrtsaber, if I recall correctly. Luke saw it even before the pause. It seems more likely Vader paused because suddenly the his old foe was dropping his guard and he suspected some trick. I certainly would have in his position.

- Leia's torture is never shown. She resists the chemicals and ministrations of a torture droid, then drops the information they want to Gran Moff Tarkin at his mere threat of using a weapon which Leia shouldn't even logically consider as a feasible threat. "There's no such weapon!"

Leia's torture scene is quite rightly not shown. It would not have fit the tone of the movie to actually show her getting tortured. I wouldn't read anything more into it than there is. Otherwisewe have to start questioning is Beru and Owen really died, since we never see them get killed.

And from what I recall...Leia doesn't crack over that threat. She gives them the location of an abandoned rebel base. Dantooine. Leia neve says 'There's no such weapon!; that I recall. Checking the scriptseems to confirm that. Leia's the one who was getting the plans for the station to the alliance,she has to have a pretty good idea what the Death Star can do.

- Vader didn't outrank Gran Moff Tarkin. He never ordered anyone to attack Beru and Owen, it's all assumption.

What hapened to Beru and Owen is pretty obvious. Stormtroopers track the driods to the jawas. Then interrogate and kill the jawas. From there ther track leads to Owen and Beru and the same thing happens. Interrogate, then kill. I doubt there was any specific order to kill them,just a generic 'get rid of witnesses'. order.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

1. What did Yoday make up? Obiwan is the only one who really seemed to be stretching the truth so as to protect a young mind like Luke's. As far as you can tell any emtional use of the force DOES lead to the dark side. Show me one incident where any emotional use of the force was not a risk. On the other had it is shown several times that a Jedi can do his greatest acts with the force by emptying himself and just accepting the force into himself and just move through instinct.

ie

Luke destroys Death Star
Obiwan kills Darth Maul


2. Qui Gon was not a fool. A Sith Lord was walking around training an apprentice on Coruscant and the Jedi could not even sense him. The clone army had just gone into production and they had no clue. A dark lord controlled many of the senators and they had no idea. I think its obvious to see that the Jedi has lost much of their power even in EP1. Only in EP2 is there enough of this stuff hitting them in the face to make it obvious.

3. It is very much implied that a Jedi Master or Knight has the authority to take any force sensitive child as a student. Once he did so Neither Yoda nor anyone else had the authority to stop him. If Yoda is guilty of anything he is guilty of being to stronly inclined to accept tradition.

Okay.. Darth Vader is on the Dark Side.. the reason is he is willing to use the Force to kill. According to the Lucas World View of the Force...when you use ANY emotions to fuel you Force Powers you are being tempted by the dark side.. and When you use the "darker" emotions such as Anger and Hate.. you are definately fueling you powers with the Dark Side. I think the quote from a poster is.. "To be a Jedi, you must not know Anger, you must not know Hate, and you must not know Love" Basically to be a Good Jedi, you have to sacrifice your Humanity. Not a good deal in my mind.. just find a middle ground (even though Yoda.. who probably is the true Sith Lord considering the number of stuff ups he has made, has indicated the with the Force there is no middle ground) that you can walk.

Darth Maul is evil, because he embraces his Hate and his Anger...it fuels his passion. We may not see him do evil in the movie..but that is only because the oppurtunity has not presented itself..

Now.. the thing is.. Qui-Jon was a fool.. He finds the boy who will bring Balance to the Force.. hmm... in a time when the Jedi Council is in control.. the Sith have been dormant for 1000 years.. And Yoda.. is more of a fool...or the True Sith Lord.. because as David Brin in a review said.. he let a half trained Jedi (Obi-Wan) take Anakin as a Padawan rather than get him trained by the best Jedi instructor they had.. and in doing so it leads to the creation of Vader.. and the downfall of the Jedi Council and balance shifts from Good Guys on Top.. to Bad Guys on Top.... and the thing is.. Balance would really be.. Equal numbers/power levels of Light Siders to Dark Siders and the galaxy split fairly evenly with spots of peace and tranquility and spots of chaos and destruction.

whoops.. I rambled.. well.. there is my grand unified theory on the SW universe. gimme my purple light saber.

 

[kingpaul]

And Yoda.. is more of a fool...or the True Sith Lord.. because as David Brin in a review said.. he let a half trained Jedi (Obi-Wan) take Anakin as a Padawan

Ummm...I could've sworn that Yoda didn't think that Obi-Wan should've been Anakin's mentor, but was over-ruled by the rest of the Council.