Other than Close Bursts, is there an upside to Size Large?

[babinro]

Personally, I find that D&D has dropped the ball on distinguishing creature size.

I'd have loved to see a much larger damage scaling based on size when appropriate to the monster. Beyond simply damage, incorporate being struck by huge creatures with push effects and or prone. Even just giving those reach based creatures greater access to Threatening Reach.

The thing is, I see little reason for such differences to exist in the current state of the game. It isn't a matter of balance, since PC's don't have access to Large/Huge/Gargantuan size.

As an example: Fomorian Butcher (size Huge/Elite Brute) from MM2 does Reach 3: 4d4+14 as a basic attack at level 22. <high critical>

Poisonscale Savage from MM2 (Medium/Brute) deals 2d6+3 on basic attack for a level 2.

The difference in damage is solid based on size alone. However relative to the PC's expected HP from levels 2 to 22...this is a bit of a joke. The PC has no reason to really fear a creature of this size based on stature. They are free to walk in and stand firm against a creature that dwarfs them because mechanically, this creature's size simply means there is more of it to hit and that it could attack you on its turn from a farther distance.

 

[DracoSuave]

Personally, I find that D&D has dropped the ball on distinguishing creature size.

I'd have loved to see a much larger damage scaling based on size when appropriate to the monster. Beyond simply damage, incorporate being struck by huge creatures with push effects and or prone. Even just giving those reach based creatures greater access to Threatening Reach.

Well, let's say you have a level 5 monster. You make it large, if you want to increase its damage and such go right ahead.

It won't be a level 5 monster no more tho.

The thing is, I see little reason for such differences to exist in the current state of the game. It isn't a matter of balance, since PC's don't have access to Large/Huge/Gargantuan size.

Game balance isn't determined by making PCs and NPCs use the same rules.

'Well x doesn't get access to this' isn't really how the game is balanced.

As an example: Fomorian Butcher (size Huge/Elite Brute) from MM2 does Reach 3: 4d4+14 as a basic attack at level 22. <high critical>

Poisonscale Savage from MM2 (Medium/Brute) deals 2d6+3 on basic attack for a level 2.

Okay?

The difference in damage is solid based on size alone. However relative to the PC's expected HP from levels 2 to 22...this is a bit of a joke. The PC has no reason to really fear a creature of this size based on stature.

Given that such a PC might in fact be a demigod, or themselves a colossus of eternal defending might, or power level equivalent to the mythical Heracles, no, 'It's pretty big' isn't a reason for PCs to be trembling.

They are free to walk in and stand firm against a creature that dwarfs them because mechanically, this creature's size simply means there is more of it to hit and that it could attack you on its turn from a farther distance.

Um... yes. Epic characters can take on epic things, and it being large doesn't make it 'epiccier' than an equivalent level monster. This is because if it did, it would not be an equivalent level monster.

More powerful monsters have more levels, so comparing equal level monsters and saying 'This should be bad-asser because it is size large and this is size medium' is missing the point of what levels are supposed to entail.

 

[KarinsDad]

My take:

I think large and larger creatures get the shaft for many reasons:

1) The vast majority of monsters with reach do not have threatening reach. You have this rampaging monster that is swinging tentacles and claws all over the place 15 or 20 feet from its body, but a PC can calming walk up without harm and attack.

2) Many monsters can be 10 or 20 or even 30 feet tall, but still only move at 6 or 8. WT? Are their shoes tied together?

3) A PC at 5 feet tall can shift 5 feet, but at monster at 30 feet tall can typically shift, err, 5 feet. Huh?

4) A burst or blast only has to hit one square of the 4 or more squares of a larger monster to totally affect it. Why doesn't the fist of most Huge and larger creatures hit 4 or more squares? Can't they swing it in a massive arc 15 feet long and 30 feet across?

5) These larger monsters sometimes have huge Strengths, but they do similar damage as smaller weaker monsters. Huh?

6) Most large and larger monsters do not have any sort of resistance to forced movement. They weigh 2000 pounds, but can be easily pushed or slide by all types of powers.

7) Most Huge and especially Gargantuan monsters do not have ways to just step on these insect-like PCs and crush them like ants for a lot of damage.


There should be a larger monster union that pickets WotC.


Btw, the monster design argument of "that's the way it was done" is kind of lame. One should be able to take a 3rd level monster and use most of the same statistics, but increase it's size by one, and increase it's damage significantly and hit points as if it were 4th level, but leave it's to hit and defenses the same, and call it a 4th level monster. Or, increase it by two sizes, bumping up damage a lot and hit points as if it were 5th level, and keep it's defenses and to hit the same and call it a 5th level monster.

Sure, it's slightly easier to hit and it has a harder time hitting, but it can take more of a beating and when it does connect, POW!

That's what most larger monsters should do.

A Gargantuan Dragon should do massive damage with a claw attack. An Ancient Brown at 25th level does 18 average damage with a claw. zzzzzz Even with the MM2 updates, a 27th level Ancient Copper also does an average of 18 with a claw attack. An Epic level PC with 200 hit points and a gazillion ways to mitigate damage or heal is not even going to notice that.

Larger monsters should be terrors, not terriers.

Gargantuan monsters should make Epic level PCs quake in their boots. IMO.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Larger monsters should be terrors, not terriers.

Gargantuan monsters should make Epic level PCs quake in their boots. IMO.

The solution to your problem is use large and larger monster only with at least partylvl+3 and only elite or solo versions.

A lvlx monster has to have a specific powerlevel regardless of size otherwise it is not lvlx.

 

[DracoSuave]

The solution to your problem is use large and larger monster only with at least partylvl+3 and only elite or solo versions.

A lvlx monster has to have a specific powerlevel regardless of size otherwise it is not lvlx.

This.

Expecting large monsters to be more powerful than their level makes them incorrectly leveled, meaning you have to add to their level to make them 'right.' Level, of course, is a tool for gauging the difficulty of a monster, so it must follow that progression, otherwise, level is not doing what it is supposed to do.

Moreover, you can't logically have the mindset 'Large creatures must always be higher level than PCs' because you fall into this trap:

Level 10 large monsters are not tough for level 10 players.
So make them level 14.
Now level 14 large monsters are not tough for level 14 players.
So make them level 21.
Now they aren't a challenge for level 21 players.
....
some time later
....
Now they're level 34.
Great, what do I toss against this level 6 party then?



The ONLY level you EVER compare a monster to is the level of the people you're running the game for. How a monster compares to the party is the only meaningful indicator of its appropriateness or challenge. And if a monster isn't the right power level for that party? Use a more powerful monster (either a different one, or level up the current one).

But is that level 22 monster a threat for your party? Well, it sure did when they were level 17! Maybe you should have used it then instead of wait until they caught up.

 

[Shin Okada]

Other than Close Bursts, is there an upside to Size Large?...or Huge or Gargantuan?

I'm not really seeing one. In fact, it seems to hose monsters without any compensation.

There are several advantages for being large or larger.

Having a bigger space means the monster can cover more squares with their melee attacks.

You need more speed to go into flanking position when the opponent occupies a wider space.

A large giant can completely fill and block a two-square-wide corridor, while a medium monster cannot.

You cannot grab an opponent two or more size category larger than you, without some help from specific item or feature.

 

[Kingreaper]

Btw, the monster design argument of "that's the way it was done" is kind of lame. One should be able to take a 3rd level monster and use most of the same statistics, but increase it's size by one, and increase it's damage significantly and hit points as if it were 4th level, but leave it's to hit and defenses the same, and call it a 4th level monster. Or, increase it by two sizes, bumping up damage a lot and hit points as if it were 5th level, and keep it's defenses and to hit the same and call it a 5th level monster..

So, essentially, you want to take a monster, make it larger, make it higher level, and make it a brute?

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

My take:

I think large and larger creatures get the shaft for many reasons:

1) The vast majority of monsters with reach do not have threatening reach. You have this rampaging monster that is swinging tentacles and claws all over the place 15 or 20 feet from its body, but a PC can calming walk up without harm and attack.

But threatening reach represents something different than just being able to reach a square. Its a question of whether or not the monster can control all of that space well enough to make it impossible to cross without being attacked. This is going to depend on the monster, but a giant with a big club might well not qualify (as an example) since his weapon is ponderous enough that the fighter can easily zip across the 10 feet of space it threatens while its out of position.

2) Many monsters can be 10 or 20 or even 30 feet tall, but still only move at 6 or 8. WT? Are their shoes tied together?

Ever seen an elephant? They are reasonably fast, but not because of their size and they are a LOT slower than all those gazelles and whatnot that are much smaller. Huge creatures are not particularly faster than smaller ones in the real world.

3) A PC at 5 feet tall can shift 5 feet, but at monster at 30 feet tall can typically shift, err, 5 feet. Huh?

Again, in the real world huge creatures aren't known for being particularly agile.

4) A burst or blast only has to hit one square of the 4 or more squares of a larger monster to totally affect it. Why doesn't the fist of most Huge and larger creatures hit 4 or more squares? Can't they swing it in a massive arc 15 feet long and 30 feet across?

Sure, and if you look in the MMs I think you'll find that a high proportion of bigger creatures have powers that reflect this kind of thing. If it were BUILT IN to the size mechanics then you could have silliness because its not always appropriate. If a creature seems to you like it SHOULD have some sort of mechanism like this and it doesn't its pretty easy to tack it on. I think the designers wanted variety.

5) These larger monsters sometimes have huge Strengths, but they do similar damage as smaller weaker monsters. Huh?

As DS so ably noted creatures that are doing more damage are higher level. Levels group creatures by their THREAT, so yes weaker creatures of the same level will do as much damage as stronger ones because that is what makes them the same level! I'll agree with you if you say that the damage output of creatures is too low at higher levels, but that's a totally different discussion.

6) Most large and larger monsters do not have any sort of resistance to forced movement. They weigh 2000 pounds, but can be easily pushed or slide by all types of powers.

I agree this is largely true, but its easy enough to devise narrative reasons for this in a lot of cases, they DO resist the one ubiquitous push maneuver that all characters have, and just in general it would turn most battles with larger creatures into static slugfests to make them immovable. It may not be super realistic, but...

Of course again you're free to give large creatures extra powers to make them resist forced movement.

7) Most Huge and especially Gargantuan monsters do not have ways to just step on these insect-like PCs and crush them like ants for a lot of damage.

This is entirely true, but really is this all that big a deal? The game is totally unrealistic anyway. You can say that realistically a monster would be able to squash the PCs, but yet the PCs should be able to just shoot it in the eye and kill it too! People have been killing elephants for centuries. Get near one and you're toast, but with the right weapons neanderthal man had no problem doing it.

There should be a larger monster union that pickets WotC.


Btw, the monster design argument of "that's the way it was done" is kind of lame. One should be able to take a 3rd level monster and use most of the same statistics, but increase it's size by one, and increase it's damage significantly and hit points as if it were 4th level, but leave it's to hit and defenses the same, and call it a 4th level monster. Or, increase it by two sizes, bumping up damage a lot and hit points as if it were 5th level, and keep it's defenses and to hit the same and call it a 5th level monster.

Sure, it's slightly easier to hit and it has a harder time hitting, but it can take more of a beating and when it does connect, POW!

That's what most larger monsters should do.

A Gargantuan Dragon should do massive damage with a claw attack. An Ancient Brown at 25th level does 18 average damage with a claw. zzzzzz Even with the MM2 updates, a 27th level Ancient Copper also does an average of 18 with a claw attack. An Epic level PC with 200 hit points and a gazillion ways to mitigate damage or heal is not even going to notice that.

Larger monsters should be terrors, not terriers.

Gargantuan monsters should make Epic level PCs quake in their boots. IMO.

OK, so make your larger monsters that you want to be like that brutes. Given the extreme flexibility 4e gives you with monster customization its hard to say they did it wrong. They created a bunch of monsters that playtesting indicated would work well, but you're free to play with different ones. I'd consider carefully though before I went too far with that.

 

[KarinsDad]

Ever seen an elephant? They are reasonably fast, but not because of their size and they are a LOT slower than all those gazelles and whatnot that are much smaller. Huge creatures are not particularly faster than smaller ones in the real world.

...

OK, so make your larger monsters that you want to be like that brutes. Given the extreme flexibility 4e gives you with monster customization its hard to say they did it wrong. They created a bunch of monsters that playtesting indicated would work well, but you're free to play with different ones. I'd consider carefully though before I went too far with that.

Let's take your Elephant example.

An Elephant can kill a human in seconds. For those who have not seen elephants up close, they are ferocious in combat. I've seen an elephant fed fruit in a bag and it was extremely vicious for those few seconds it takes for it to rip the bag open. It almost literally scared the crap out of some of the people who were nearby watching and caused them to jump back, it was that vicious in such a routine activity for the elephant.

A real life human in armor wouldn't stand a chance. There's a reason that Elephants were used as war mounts in India for millenium.

I feel that the large monsters that can pick up houses in D&D should be that way too.

For example, the Ogre (or whatever it was) in LotR. Slow moving, but when he hit a creature, even accidently, it went flying across a room and smashing into a wall.

That's what larger creatures should be, especially the non-slow moving ones.

Dragons that weigh 30,000 pounds should squash even an epic level PC to the ground under their claw for massive amounts of damage. But, the Epic level PC is still epic. That PC should while hurt, like Hercules be able to lift the massive claw off of him, or like the Gray Mouser, be able to squirm out from under, or like Gandalf fighting the Balrog, be able to use his magic to form a magical force shield. Still pinned to the ground by a dragon and able to use magic, but not killed.


The problem with 4E is that it has no flavor.

There's no GARGANTUAN in Gargantuan sized creatures.

There's no MAGIC in spell casters (everyone has similar level super powers).

Every foe is just another foe, size doesn't really matter and it should. Magic should REALLY matter, but it doesn't. Necrotic damage should be REALLY nasty and scary, but it isn't. It's just another form of damage.

There is no horror or threat or scare factor in 4E. It's flavorless because everything is so homogonized. There is no difference between unnamed damage and fire damage and necrotic damage, etc.


Granted, 3E and earlier versions had some of these same flaws as well, but not quite as bad in some areas. The goal to achieve balance in 4E, although well intended, has also trivialized and marginalized the game.

Save or die shouldn't exist. But, hit for 100 or even 150 points of damage at epic level should on occasion exist. Liches should scare the crap out of high level PCs. PCs should never consider taking on a Gargantuan Dragon without a lot of preparation. Demigods should be extra fast and scary and they should pull miracles out of their butts that startle even the most experienced PCs and players.

Enemy spell casters that bring down castles should exist on occasion. There should be serious threats. But most of the game system is "swing to hit", "do a relatively small amount of damage unless you are a Striker PC", next.

There's no mystical feel to the game mechanics. Everything is just another monster and there is no magic because everyone, PC or NPC, has powers.


It's not that larger creatures should all be Brutes. It's that larger creatures should be threatening, just because they are large. Larger creatures should be able to stampede a PC into a wall and flatten that PC. The player of that PC should be wary and cautious because of that.

Instead, larger creatures have no special abilities in these types of areas. They cannot just crush a PC, even though a Frost Giant should be able to grab a PC and rip it limb from limb or wrestle a PC to the ground with one hand. The threat is not there.

The game mechanics do not match what the imagination of the players should allow for.

Epic should truly be Epic. Mountains blowing up and Rivers being diverted and a massive monster that can flatten an entire town in minutes by just moving through it.

That doesn't happen because large creatures are no tougher than their same level smaller counterparts and magic no longer has umph to it.

All in the name of the great god Balance, all praise to his name. Amen.

 

[monboesen]

Larger creatures should be able to stampede a PC into a wall and flatten that PC. The player of that PC should be wary and cautious because of that.

Instead, larger creatures have no special abilities in these types of areas. They cannot just crush a PC, even though a Frost Giant should be able to grab a PC and rip it limb from limb or wrestle a PC to the ground with one hand. The threat is not there.

I dont recall any formal rules in any edition of D&D that allowed larger creatures to do that. And if you wanted to you use p42 for that kind of action.


If I wanted to make fights with larger monsters more dangerous in general I would pick monsters +3-5 levels above the characters.