Other than Close Bursts, is there an upside to Size Large?

[Obryn]

More powerful monsters have more levels, so comparing equal level monsters and saying 'This should be bad-asser because it is size large and this is size medium' is missing the point of what levels are supposed to entail.

That's not even close to what I'm saying. I don't think large monsters should be insanely badass; I'm saying that being large is a downside, not an upside. And adding slightly more damage or an ability like moving someone out of their way would bring the monster's power level back to where a similarly-statted Medium creature is. I don't want them powered outside their level; I want them at similar power as smaller same-level monsters.

-O

 

[unan oranis]

How does the movement work exactly?

I thought you count from one of the squares the large creature is occupying, and when you finish the move the creature can "pivot" or be placed in any legal way as long as the final square counted is occupied... if that's the real rule than large creatures get a significant move bonus in addition to the other minor perks.

Being tall helps with the ladies too.

 

[mneme]

Karinsdad: So, it seems like you're saying that players should get an experience penalty for fighting large creatures--that they should be more dangerous than the reward they're worth gives them credit for...

If that's not the case, why not just typically make sure the large creatures players go against are 3-5 levels above the typical creature the PCs run up against? Throw in some P42 crush attacks and problem solved!

Level == threat. If they're higher threat, they should be higher level.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Let's take your Elephant example.

An Elephant can kill a human in seconds. For those who have not seen elephants up close, they are ferocious in combat. I've seen an elephant fed fruit in a bag and it was extremely vicious for those few seconds it takes for it to rip the bag open. It almost literally scared the crap out of some of the people who were nearby watching and caused them to jump back, it was that vicious in such a routine activity for the elephant.

A real life human in armor wouldn't stand a chance. There's a reason that Elephants were used as war mounts in India for millenium.

I feel that the large monsters that can pick up houses in D&D should be that way too.

For example, the Ogre (or whatever it was) in LotR. Slow moving, but when he hit a creature, even accidently, it went flying across a room and smashing into a wall.

That's what larger creatures should be, especially the non-slow moving ones.

Dragons that weigh 30,000 pounds should squash even an epic level PC to the ground under their claw for massive amounts of damage. But, the Epic level PC is still epic. That PC should while hurt, like Hercules be able to lift the massive claw off of him, or like the Gray Mouser, be able to squirm out from under, or like Gandalf fighting the Balrog, be able to use his magic to form a magical force shield. Still pinned to the ground by a dragon and able to use magic, but not killed.


The problem with 4E is that it has no flavor.

There's no GARGANTUAN in Gargantuan sized creatures.

There's no MAGIC in spell casters (everyone has similar level super powers).

Every foe is just another foe, size doesn't really matter and it should. Magic should REALLY matter, but it doesn't. Necrotic damage should be REALLY nasty and scary, but it isn't. It's just another form of damage.

There is no horror or threat or scare factor in 4E. It's flavorless because everything is so homogonized. There is no difference between unnamed damage and fire damage and necrotic damage, etc.


Granted, 3E and earlier versions had some of these same flaws as well, but not quite as bad in some areas. The goal to achieve balance in 4E, although well intended, has also trivialized and marginalized the game.

Save or die shouldn't exist. But, hit for 100 or even 150 points of damage at epic level should on occasion exist. Liches should scare the crap out of high level PCs. PCs should never consider taking on a Gargantuan Dragon without a lot of preparation. Demigods should be extra fast and scary and they should pull miracles out of their butts that startle even the most experienced PCs and players.

Enemy spell casters that bring down castles should exist on occasion. There should be serious threats. But most of the game system is "swing to hit", "do a relatively small amount of damage unless you are a Striker PC", next.

There's no mystical feel to the game mechanics. Everything is just another monster and there is no magic because everyone, PC or NPC, has powers.


It's not that larger creatures should all be Brutes. It's that larger creatures should be threatening, just because they are large. Larger creatures should be able to stampede a PC into a wall and flatten that PC. The player of that PC should be wary and cautious because of that.

Instead, larger creatures have no special abilities in these types of areas. They cannot just crush a PC, even though a Frost Giant should be able to grab a PC and rip it limb from limb or wrestle a PC to the ground with one hand. The threat is not there.

The game mechanics do not match what the imagination of the players should allow for.

Epic should truly be Epic. Mountains blowing up and Rivers being diverted and a massive monster that can flatten an entire town in minutes by just moving through it.

That doesn't happen because large creatures are no tougher than their same level smaller counterparts and magic no longer has umph to it.

All in the name of the great god Balance, all praise to his name. Amen.

If that is what you want out of your oversized creatures, you need to play something like HERO. Absent HRs, that kind of stuff has never really existed in D&D.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Let's take your Elephant example.

An Elephant can kill a human in seconds. For those who have not seen elephants up close, they are ferocious in combat. I've seen an elephant fed fruit in a bag and it was extremely vicious for those few seconds it takes for it to rip the bag open. It almost literally scared the crap out of some of the people who were nearby watching and caused them to jump back, it was that vicious in such a routine activity for the elephant.

A real life human in armor wouldn't stand a chance. There's a reason that Elephants were used as war mounts in India for millenium.

I feel that the large monsters that can pick up houses in D&D should be that way too.

Sure, and a guy with a crossbow can fell an elephant in a single shot too. This is what I mean when I mention realism. Being knocked off its feat is in fact practically a fatal incident for an elephant. I agree they are powerful and frightening creatures, I've been in spitting distance of WILD elephants! My point is the reality of huge creatures is more complex than just "they're awesomely powerful combatants". In terms of how this plays out in 4e (or any other RPG I've played that has had such creatures) its not generally all that realistic perhaps, but is it really MORE unrealistic than the rest of the system? I'm not sure. I haven't gotten into a sword fight or tried to kill an elephant with primitive weapons (or any other kind actually).

Anyway, I'd point out that the 4e stats for an elephant actually make it a fairly scary creature. It has 111 HP, AC20, 2 attacks that are +11 vs AC and both do around 14 average damage. One has reach 2 and the other knocks the target prone. They have a +11 Athletics bonus. Oddly the level of an elephant isn't listed for whatever reason in the Compendium but I'm guessing from the stats it is around an 8th level monster.

Now, this elephant isn't going to be a massive threat to 8th level PCs, but its a juggernaut of destruction compared to any sort of ordinary person or even a highly capable and relatively experienced person (say a low level adventurer). I'd say one of these babies will probably TPK a level 1 party. Certainly it would give them a really bad day. It can push characters around left and right with its 25 STR +11 Athletics check, hit you from 10 feet away with its reach 2, etc.

I think this elephant pretty well portrays a huge, scary, powerful animal that your average mundane medium sized humanoids are going to want to steer well clear of unless they're well prepared and experienced.

In terms of your commentary on the "genericness" of things and their lack of flavor I think this is a trap that any game can fall into. There are systems that don't, but they are pretty much not portraying the PCs as powerful characters (look at CoC or Traveler for instance). The question that arises is is it POSSIBLE to create a workable system of epic heroes fighting monsters where there isn't a certain amount of genericization going on? After all the monsters need to be reduced to some sort of mechanics. The PCs need to have some possibility of defeating them, and for playability reasons the rules generally need to work fairly consistently even for these more extreme cases.

I think if anything 4e can give you the basis for a more extreme sort of treatment than most systems. It means treating these kinds of threats more as story elements and using different types of mechanics, like gargantuan creatures that require skill challenges to kill or composite monsters, etc.

As for how awesome the monsters are compared to the rest of the world, heck, a huge level 10 monster in the system BY THE BOOK is going to be a serious threat to anyone that isn't a PC (and at least 5th level). Your average village or town would be helpless against a couple rampaging Ogres or Hill Giants. MAYBE they might drive them off with massive casualties if its a town with a decent militia. A mid-paragon or higher tier monster of ANY kind? Totally invincible. There might well be NPCs around that can put up a fight against some of these kinds of threats, but generally speaking even a mere Flesh Golem would just wade through armies of normal people with nary a scratch.

 

[Obryn]

How does the movement work exactly?

I thought you count from one of the squares the large creature is occupying, and when you finish the move the creature can "pivot" or be placed in any legal way as long as the final square counted is occupied... if that's the real rule than large creatures get a significant move bonus in addition to the other minor perks.

I think that goes all the way back to 3.0, to deal with irregular-based minis. It's not in 4e, for sure!

I'm thinking of insanely simple crap like giving a minor action ability (or attack) to push/slide one target 1 square out of a space you're trying to occupy. Hardly game-breaking.

-O

 

[mneme]

Re Obryn's OP: There are a few signficant advantages that larger creatures get (aside from the excellent ones in #16):

Obvious...but a large creature can threaten many more squares at once, and is harder to get away from. A large+ soldier is -scary-, particularly if it pins you up against a wall, and a brute can pull the same trick.

Creatures that are more than 1 larger or smaller can move through other creatures. Sure, this draws an OA, but it's sometimes useful.

Don't forget squeezing. This isn' a tactical option for a medium creature -- but a large creature with a speed of 8 can squeeze 4 squares -- moving (and drawing OAs) as if it were a medium creature, then expanding out at the end of the action (and thus potentially getting a bonus to movement -- a large creature gets a +1 squeeze this ways, due to the shrink/expand movement; a huge creature gets a +2 squeeze). And while squeezing draws OAs, that's only an issue if the creature were threatened at the beginning of movement.

 

[KarinsDad]

Karinsdad: So, it seems like you're saying that players should get an experience penalty for fighting large creatures--that they should be more dangerous than the reward they're worth gives them credit for...

Nope. I'm saying that larger creatures should be badass, just because they are larger. And badass = damage. If damaged is increased significantly, then something else has to drop to stay at the same level (defenses, to hit, hit points, fewer special powers, something to make it the same level). Or, the level has to increase.

It's just weird when the Megaraptor Skeleton and the Marching Hamer do the same damage, but the former is Huge and the latter is Small. It feels like the Marching Hamer is badass and the Megaraptor Skeleton isn't.

 

[mneme]

Nope. I'm saying that larger creatures should be badass, just because they are larger. And badass = damage. If damaged is increased significantly, then something else has to drop to stay at the same level (defenses, to hit, hit points, fewer special powers, something to make it the same level). Or, the level has to increase.

This actually makes sense--but I think it's already the case. Brutes tends to be larger normal for their level, and monsters get larger as they go up in level. So if damage=badass, size correlates with badass.

It's just weird when the Megaraptor Skeleton and the Marching Hamer do the same damage, but the former is Huge and the latter is Small. It feels like the Marching Hamer is badass and the Megaraptor Skeleton isn't.

Well, they're both brutes, thus mechanically both intended to be badass. The Marching hammer -is- badass--it's an oddity as a small brute. The megaraptor--well, I think it's weak sauce for its level, but that's more a matter of most brutes being underpowered (still, if it bull rushes you against a wall, you're going to be eating a +15 4d6+5 attack if you want to get away, which is almost respectable).

 

[DracoSuave]

Nope. I'm saying that larger creatures should be badass, just because they are larger. And badass = damage. If damaged is increased significantly, then something else has to drop to stay at the same level (defenses, to hit, hit points, fewer special powers, something to make it the same level). Or, the level has to increase.

It's just weird when the Megaraptor Skeleton and the Marching Hamer do the same damage, but the former is Huge and the latter is Small. It feels like the Marching Hamer is badass and the Megaraptor Skeleton isn't.

Equal level creatures in the same role will be the same threat.

Wrap your mind around that.

Now, if you increase the level (and the threat) of the larger monsters, then you'll be dissatisfied with how this new large creature compares to medium creatures of -that- level.

That's an endless spiral and doesn't even follow the game-world's assumptions.

Firstly. An argument that a normal man in armor will get trampled by an elephant does not fly. Every single large monster in the Monster Manual can easily destroy any normal man, armor or not. Look at their damage; is it greater than 1? Then the normal man dies.

This is the hard part to swallow about fourth edition, but it's really important to understand what is going on here: You're not playing normal men. You're playing heroes who are not daunted by things like elephants and dinosaurs.

There is a difference between [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viti_JHSft8&feature=related"]real life[/ame] and [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lc674v7Ixw"]heroic fantasy.[/ame]