Other than Close Bursts, is there an upside to Size Large?

[Black Knight Irios]

As I said before, if you want those large+ monster's to be badass make them badass. Only use them at lvl+3 at least and as elite or solo, give them class templates like Barbarian. If the encounter features medium-sized and/or smaller creatures use weaker ones (level+0/+1/+2) for them and make the large+ ones the tough ones.

The large+ monsters will look and feel impressive even though some levels later the medium monsters are as dangerous as the large+ ones were. But there are new large+ monsters that are again threatening and impressive.

 

[KarinsDad]

As I said before, if you want those large+ monster's to be badass make them badass. Only use them at lvl+3 at least and as elite or solo, give them class templates like Barbarian.

I don't think one needs to do that.

There are only 4 sizes of monster.

One could easily say XP-wise:

Medium = Medium level
Large = Medium level +0.5, plus one die of damage
Huge = Medium level +1, plus two dice of damage
Guargantuan = Medium level +1.5, plus three dice of damage.

Call it a day. Everything else stays the same.

By the time player run into Huge or Guargantuan monsters, they have so many hit points and options that it won't be an issue. But, the big monsters will seem badass. There are some solo large and larger monsters that already do a lot of damage that would have to be carefully looked at, but the rest should be ok. And, MM III monsters seem to do more damage, so those would need to be looked at as well.

With all of the options in splat books and such anymore, I really don't see mid-heroic and higher levels as being that challenging anyway. I'd much rather throw lower level creatures that hit for more damage at the PCs where the players hit more often, than normal higher level creatures that the PCs hit less often and the encounter drags out more. It's more fun for the game to be fast and furious and threatening, then slow and plodding and an exercise in whittling through higher level monster hit points with a lesser chance to hit.

 

[the Jester]

One should be able to take a 3rd level monster and use most of the same statistics, but increase it's size by one, and increase it's damage significantly and hit points as if it were 4th level, but leave it's to hit and defenses the same, and call it a 4th level monster. Or, increase it by two sizes, bumping up damage a lot and hit points as if it were 5th level, and keep it's defenses and to hit the same and call it a 5th level monster.

No one is stopping you.

 

[the Jester]

I don't think one needs to do that.

There are only 4 sizes of monster.

One could easily say XP-wise:

Medium = Medium level
Large = Medium level +0.5, plus one die of damage
Huge = Medium level +1, plus two dice of damage
Guargantuan = Medium level +1.5, plus three dice of damage.

There is no such thing as a "half level" in 4e, nor has there ever been in D&D, so I'm not quite sure what you're arguing for here.

I am puzzled. Why are you so resistant to the idea that using a monster of level + x accomplishes your goal? Are you trying to keep the hit points down? Doesn't THAT fly in the face of realism? Shouldn't a huge brute have more hps than a medium one AND do more damage? Because that is exactly what higher level means when you're talking about monsters in 4e.

 

[keterys]

As a suggestion, instead just make the monster an Elite.

Here's one (of many possible) template you can use if you want, even:

Hulking Brute
Large or larger Brute humanoid
Saving Throws +2
Action Point 1
Hit Points +10 per level
Unstoppable
Whenever this creature becomes subject to the slowed, immobilized, restrained, dazed, or stunned conditions, it may make a save against the condition, even if a save does not normally apply. If successful, the condition is removed.
Powers
M Grab (minor; at-will)
Reach 2 (Huge 3, Gargantuan 4); Level + 3 vs Reflex; the target is pulled into this creature's space and grabbed (escape ends). This creature may grab up to two Medium or smaller targets at a time, and moves normally while carrying them, without provoking opportunity attacks from them.
M Hurl (standard; at-will)
Grabbed target only; Level + 3 vs Fortitude; High Normal Damage* and the target slides 4 squares and is knocked prone. Any enemies adjacent to the target after the slide take 3 + 1/2 Level damage.
Miss: Half damage and the target slides 2 squares.
Hit or Miss: The target is no longer grabbed.
M Brain (standard; at-will)
Grabbed target only; Level + 3 vs AC; High Normal Damage* and the target is dazed (save ends).
Failed Save: the target falls prone.
Miss: Half damage.
M Clap (standard; at-will)
Requires two grabbed targets; Make two attack rolls and apply the higher roll to an attack on both targets; Level + 3 vs AC; High Limited Damage* and the target is dazed (save ends).
Miss: Half damage.
Hit or Miss: The target is knocked prone, slides into an adjacent square, and is no longer grabbed.
* per DMG p185
It'll end up 10 hp shy of a true elite brute of its level, and its damage output may be just a littly shy of where an elite should be unless it can get off a bunch of claps or has terrain it can use with Hurl. Easy fix is probably to use about one level higher than you might have otherwise been thinking. Or not worry about it.


Example:

 

[KarinsDad]

There is no such thing as a "half level" in 4e, nor has there ever been in D&D, so I'm not quite sure what you're arguing for here.

First, I am discussing, not arguing. I'm trying to come up with an extremely simple system of making larger monsters badass without tweaking the monsters a lot.


And as I stated, half level increase XP-wise.

Add an extra half of a level of XP for a large monster that does extra damage.

Instead of 500 XP for a 10th level Standard monster, it would become 550 XP for a Large, 600 XP for a Huge, and 650 XP for a Guargantuan.

Since the monster doesn't actually gain hit points, to hit, defenses, special abilities, etc. of a higher level monster, I didn't think that each size increase rated an entire level's worth of XP.

For the most part, it is still a 10th level monster. It just happens to do more damage and hence, rates a bit more XP. It's a greater challenge.

I am puzzled. Why are you so resistant to the idea that using a monster of level + x accomplishes your goal? Are you trying to keep the hit points down? Doesn't THAT fly in the face of realism? Shouldn't a huge brute have more hps than a medium one AND do more damage? Because that is exactly what higher level means when you're talking about monsters in 4e.

Actually, higher level means more than just more hit points.

There are several reasons to not use a higher level monster. For one, they are harder to hit and have more hit points, so they drag an encounter out longer. The game is already grindy enough without doing that. Second, I still want players to experience certain types of creatures at certain levels. I don't want to throw Trolls at 3rd level PCs, just because a Troll is a larger monster. I want to throw Trolls at level 5 or 6 PCs. But when I do, I want the Troll to be badass.

A well designed 1st level Fighter does more average damage then a 10 foot tall 600 pound 7th level Cave Troll.

To me, that's just stupid. Obviously, YMMV.

I'm glad that works in other people's imaginations, but it doesn't work in mine. So, I am looking for a simple adjustment.

As a suggestion, instead just make the monster an Elite.

I was trying for a simple system.

Adding an extra dice of damage is easy to remember in game and I don't have to do a lot of extra work like add an entire template out of game. Plus, the concept works regardless of whether the monster is already an elite, a solo, a minion, or whatever.

The KISS priniciple.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

To sum it up:
You want large+ monster to be more threatening damagewise.
Therefore, you want to increase their xp value and the damage they deal.
-- That's fine.

BUT...
Previously you said you want large+ monsters to be more realistic, meaning more damage, throwing PCs around, knocking them prone, crushing them with their strength. Cool powers that show the threat they pose. That had pretty much nothing to do with just increasing damage and was more likely to be solved by the suggestions we made. I think that's one reason for "the Jesters" remark.

 

[keterys]

If you want simple, make a Theme of appropriate powers, and just add one or two to a monster. No change in xp, move right along.

Things like:
Smashing Strike (Basic at-will)
Reach 2; Level + 1 vs Fort; High Damage plus push 2

Stomp (Encounter)
Close Burst 2; Level + 1 vs Fort; High Limited Damage and prone; Miss: Half damage.