Our First 3.5 game session -- First Blush

[mmu1]

I guess I just don't understand what's so hard about it. Its just as easy for me to count squares as 1, 2, 3-4, 5, 6 as it is 1,2,3,4,5,6 and you end up with more realistic results.

It is such a minor thing though, that if its hard for your group to do, there's no harm in ignoring it.

Doing THACO the old way shouldn't have really been "difficult" for anyone who passed 3rd grade math either, but people don't like it. It's not a question of "difficult" - the people I play with are college educated, thank you very much, we can manage counting squares - it's an issue of introducing a complication (no matter how trivial) to solve a non-existent problem.

Kind of like the new weapons sizes... An improvement in realism, no imporovement at all in terms of gameplay.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Better AC & saves would have helped more than "here, have some more hit points."

I had thought monster AC scores were going up

 

[Gnarlo]

Doing THACO the old way shouldn't have really been "difficult" for anyone who passed 3rd grade math either, but people don't like it. It's not a question of "difficult" - the people I play with are college educated, thank you very much, we can manage counting squares - it's an issue of introducing a complication (no matter how trivial) to solve a non-existent problem.

Kind of like the new weapons sizes... An improvement in realism, no imporovement at all in terms of gameplay.

To some of us, it's an improvement, YMMV. My group has had the diagonal movement 5,10,5 thing since shortly after 3.0 came out, nice to see it as an official option. We also greatly like the new sizes; yes it has seriously bothered 2 members in my group that weapon handles seemed to magically resize themselves to fit the person holding it, they felt it made it far too video gameish; so to us, they are both an improvement and solve an existent problem.

Of course, we are all old Rolemaster players, too; so we may like a certain level of "trivial complication" that your group doesn't tolerate. To each his own. I know there have been endless arguments about equally trivial things on these boards

 

[MerricB]

I had thought monster AC scores were going up

The basic impression I got was:
* some monster ACs are going up
* some monsters are gaining more hit points
* some aren't changing that much.



Cheers!

 

[mmu1]

To some of us, it's an improvement, YMMV. My group has had the diagonal movement 5,10,5 thing since shortly after 3.0 came out, nice to see it as an official option. We also greatly like the new sizes; yes it has seriously bothered 2 members in my group that weapon handles seemed to magically resize themselves to fit the person holding it, they felt it made it far too video gameish; so to us, they are both an improvement and solve an existent problem.

Yeah, well, does it bother them that a 5'2" female rogue with the right proficiency can hold a greatsword made for a 6'6" hulk of a warrior? In some systems you get a penalty for using a 9mm handgun when you're used to a .45, but this is D&D.

Halflings should be able to jump almost eight times as far as humans, and have a climbing ability that'd make a monkey feel inadequate, based on their strength/weight ratio. The fact that they'd have a problem with the grips of human weapons is the least of my problems, reality-wise.

 

[scadgrad]

Psi,

Well the 9 ghouls are alreaady in S2, so I upgraded them to Ghasts. They're are wearing amulets that prevent them from being turned or destroyed, which should certainly upgrade their CR a little bit.

Did I expect them to accomplish much? No, but you'll recall that I have upgraded the module to 12th level, meaning that a few lower level encounters will be thrown in as well. These easier threats should sap some of the parties resources if they are also facing other more challenging opponents during the same adventuring day.

Monster AC scores all going up? Not necessarily, it looks like a few monsters got downgraded a bit.

Take your friend the Orc, you know the guy with the pie

3.0 saw him w/ AC 14, a +3 AB doing d12+3 in defense of his beloved pie, though w/ a mere 4 hp, he's probably All Offense

3.5 he now sports an AC 13, a +4 AB doing 2d4+4 damage with his dreaded falchion (can anyone imagine an Orc pronouncing the word falchion? Too many syllables) he does get an upgrade to 5 hps.

Actually this isn't that bad of a change IMO. That d12 + 3 was an absolute killer for 1st level dudes.

There are other examples of course, but that's just the 1st one that pops into mind. It just seems like a lot of the improvements were just a bump in hp & maybe a bit more damage potential.

Merric B,

Yeah, that's probably about right, but it seems like more hp improvements than AC improvement. Take the Ogre for example (while we're in the O's). He gets +3 average HPs(from Toughness) w/ no change to AC or AB. He does do 2d8+7 rather than 2d6+7. Init is still crap and AC is unchanged. He's CR 3 now rather than CR 2 probably because of the damage potential, but that seems a bit much.

ymmv

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I see.

How about some high-CR monster AC scores? Just not the delver or any outsiders, please.

 

[MerricB]

Psi,

Well the 9 ghouls are alreaady in S2, so I upgraded them to Ghasts. They're are wearing amulets that prevent them from being turned or destroyed, which should certainly upgrade their CR a little bit.

Interestingly enough, I've read one of the designers of 3E noting that possibility of an undead creature being turned wasn't considered at all in the calculation of the Challenge Rating.

I wonder who that was? I read so much, I lose track.

Yeah, that's probably about right, but it seems like more hp improvements than AC improvement. Take the Ogre for example (while we're in the O's). He gets +3 average HPs(from Toughness) w/ no change to AC or AB. He does do 2d8+7 rather than 2d6+7. Init is still crap and AC is unchanged. He's CR 3 now rather than CR 2 probably because of the damage potential, but that seems a bit much.

It's also the size change - being face 10' with 10' reach is better than face 5' with 10' reach.

The problem with AC improvements is that soon enough you have creatures that only the fighter can hit - and that's not fun. (It's like the DR problem all over again).

I've done a lot of DMing with big parties (the largest was 9 members!), and it's tricky to get the balance right.

The best way I've found is to run one or two monsters of about the APL in CR (so a couple of CR 9 or 10's for your group), paired with several lesser creatures (possibly CR 4-7). If the lesser creatures can buy the CR 9s a couple of rounds, things get interesting.

Cheers!

 

[A'koss]

Originally posted by MerricB:
It's also the size change - being face 10' with 10' reach is better than face 5' with 10' reach.

Um, no it's not.

It's a liability to the larger creature as now more people can gang up on him and he can't get as many of his buddies to gang up on a single target. If he had whirlwind attack it might be some advantage, but otherwise...


A'koss.

 

[mmu1]

Um, no it's not.

It's a liability to the larger creature as now more people can gang up on him and he can't get as many of his buddies to gang up on a single target. If he had whirlwind attack it might be some advantage, but otherwise...


A'koss.

It's probably an advantage, actually. Although now 12 instead of 8 Medium-sized creatures can theoretically gang up on him, that's hardly a disadvantage in practical terms (when was the last time in any game you ran that there wasn't enough room around the Ogre for the entire party?), and the change also increases his threatened area from 24 to 32 squares, makes it harder for people to tumble around him, and makes far fewer ogres fit into any given AOE. It does slow him down in a 5' wide passage, but speed was hardly ever one of the Ogre's major advantages...