"Out of the Frying Pan" - Book II: Catching the Spark (Part Two) - {complete}

MasterOfHeaven

First Post
What are these Druids? A holdover from 2nd Edition? Where are the NG and NE Druids? I can't believe the party is not reacting more harshly to the fact that these Druids have a woman chained up in a clearing who they're planning to sacrifice. It just doesn't seem right.

Plus, if someone asked me to rip out my fingernail just so they would answer a simple question, I wouldn't really have a high opinion of them from that point on. Oh yeah... why the hell did Beorth chop off his finger? It's bad enough the other party members are ripping out fingernails, why go to a new level of stupidity?

Not to mention the fact it's possible the Druids are eeeevillll and they want the fingernails for components to spells to be used against the party. Garh. I just don't think the party should be assisting these Druids in any way. I'd complete the task, and then kill them all. But that's me. Interesting story, at any rate.
 

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MavrickWeirdo

First Post
madriel said:
Nemm, you mentioned that Kazrack didn't *ever* share the results with the rest of the party. How many sessions ahead is your group? Are you going to tell us what he learned?

I think that Nemmerle typically keeps the party about 4 sessions ahead of what is posted. That way the speculations and sugestions of the readers are less likely to bias the behavior of the characters. He probably won't tell us what Kazrack learned unless Kazrack tells someone else in the party.

Of course I could be wrong.
 

el-remmen

Moderator Emeritus
MasterOfHeaven said:
What are these Druids? A holdover from 2nd Edition? Where are the NG and NE Druids? I can't believe the party is not reacting more harshly to the fact that these Druids have a woman chained up in a clearing who they're planning to sacrifice. It just doesn't seem right.

Plus, if someone asked me to rip out my fingernail just so they would answer a simple question, I wouldn't really have a high opinion of them from that point on. Oh yeah... why the hell did Beorth chop off his finger? It's bad enough the other party members are ripping out fingernails, why go to a new level of stupidity?

Not to mention the fact it's possible the Druids are eeeevillll and they want the fingernails for components to spells to be used against the party. Garh. I just don't think the party should be assisting these Druids in any way. I'd complete the task, and then kill them all. But that's me. Interesting story, at any rate.

I really want to leave these questions for one of my players to respond to. . . but they rarely post here unfortunately (I will try to get them to respond however).

I have my own opinions about this whole thing (obviously), but cannot and should not express them.
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In terms of how far behind we are: I am still writng up session #30 - and on Saturday we will play Session #35.
 

Martin Olarin

First Post
MasterOfHeaven said:
What are these Druids? A holdover from 2nd Edition? Where are the NG and NE Druids? I can't believe the party is not reacting more harshly to the fact that these Druids have a woman chained up in a clearing who they're planning to sacrifice. It just doesn't seem right.

Plus, if someone asked me to rip out my fingernail just so they would answer a simple question, I wouldn't really have a high opinion of them from that point on. Oh yeah... why the hell did Beorth chop off his finger? It's bad enough the other party members are ripping out fingernails, why go to a new level of stupidity?

Not to mention the fact it's possible the Druids are eeeevillll and they want the fingernails for components to spells to be used against the party. Garh. I just don't think the party should be assisting these Druids in any way. I'd complete the task, and then kill them all. But that's me. Interesting story, at any rate.

At least one player reacted as you seem to think they should have and the rest had either religious or alignment issues for accepting the Druids as they are.

Even if one assumes the druids are evil (depends on how one defines nuetral) there is nothing to say that another druid circle isn't leaning towards good and, as a result, balanceing both groups towards nuetrality.

As far as determining if the circle is evil or not it is important to remember that, as distasteful as the circle seems, the woman in this installment did commit a crime and a death sentence was not uncommon in medievil sociieties.

Even if evil, killing the circle wasn't a real option considering the unlikelyhood (spelling?) of success and the danger to the long term goals of the group such an attempt would represent.
 

Sinuhe

First Post
Beorth and the woman in chains

As the player of Beorth, I would like to respond to Masterof Heaven's post of earlier. I think that having a player speak about the situation probably would clarify the "why, the "what" and the exact reasons why we did not mount an all out assault upon the Druids of the Thorn. In fact, as a group, we did no more than "go along" with the Druids and some people might call into question the actions (and lack thereof) of Beorth, who is a lawful good paladin. This post serves as a defense of Nemmerle's approach and also of the actions of Beorth while there. Though in many ways, a "public defense" of how I play my character should not be required.

First and foremost, I would like to applaud Nemmerle's take on the Circle of the Thorn. I think that they are a very interesting group of characters and also a VERY welcome twist on traditional druid. Nemm's druids are not a "throwback" to the 2nd edition, but I would say an advancement and an innovation on the sylvan druids that are more typically found in various campaigns. In fact, I would say that they are definitely in line with the "new and improved" 3rd edition--- the people at Wizards of the Coast claim how they reinvented and upgraded many of the old classes to make them more interesting and fun to play. And it seems to me that the Circle of the Thorn is just such a group.

Of course, I DO NOT know the original source for the Circle (though I know some of the readers of the story hour do) so I DO NOT know how much of the original is Nemmerle's. I know quite simply that the Circle was a remarkable bit of DMing

The Circle of the Thorn was definitely a test of the morals of our group and was a challenge to handle for all of us (I think, on that issue, everyone in the group would agree.)

MasterofHeaven, I think that more information about the campaign world (Aquerra) and the deities involved would probably lead to a better understanding of why our characters behaved the way they did. My character, I believe, as a devout believer in the pantheon of Ra and a follower of Anubis has a certain level of understanding of the issues at work here. As a player, however, my understanding (and thus Beorth's take on it)comes strictly from the Aquerra Player's Handbook.

Osiris functions in 2 main ways. He is the God of Nature and also the Judge of the Dead. He and his followers are responsible for the "continuation of the cycle of nature" and ensuring the "balance of the universe" (i.e. the interplay of good vs. evil) He is also the diety that judges the spirits of the dead after they leave Anubis' realm.

As an extension of this role, the Circle of the Thorn may sit in judgement on other characters (living characters, I mean) and metes out the "punishment" for actions taken. It is part of their duty to balance wrong doing with the proper punishment. In addition they uphold very strictly, the idea of "give and take." To receive in their world, one must "give" something in return. To receive help from the Circle, the players were required to "give" a fingernail. They were required to sacrifice something to receive something. It is a very interesting example of "balance." Grisly and grotesque, but definitely interesting.

Beorth cut off his finger as a protest. By taking it one step beyond, he was not performing an act of "stupidity;" he was being subtley critical of the whole idea.

As far as the "woman in chains" that we failed to release, it is also a known fact (by Beorth and by others), that some individuals convicted of crimes ASK to be given over to the Druids to be sacrificed to Osiris. I quote from the Aquerra guide: "This is done in hope of one of two things. The first is that the druids (who are not overly concerned with human law) will let the criminal go free through negligence. The second is the hope of the criminal that by sacrificing himself Osiris will judge him more mercifully." (APH 26) Beorth and Ratchis both knew of this (religion rolls were required) and THAT is why they did not charge in to save her and demand her release. The prisoner committed a crime and she chose to be taken into the Circle as a prisoner. She could have chosen to die by other means.


All of these arguments aside, I think what this comes down to is the fact that as a group we were NOT given a choice. It was required that we perform the task set by Osiris and the task would NOT have been completed had the group behaved in any other way. As terrible and purportedly "evil" the races and the attitude of the Circle were, these creatures represent a very important figure in the Aquerran Pantheon, a figure that we were sworn to work for. In the interest of "balance" Osiris "gave" Jeremy his life back (at the behest of the group) and in return he set these 4 tasks to be completed by the party.

Since leaving Verdun, Beorth has learned that piety is not a simple and clear path. He owes allegiance to Anubis, but also to the other Gods as well. And he must accept and understand the way that their sects act and behave--- even if their actions are questionable on the surface. Only an idiot would choose to disobey a God of Osiris' nature and standing--- he is second in line in the power structure of the pantheon, after all.


Now for the disclaimer. I hope that I didn't misrepresent Aquerra in this post. I am writing as a player and not the DM of Aquerra. I don't know if my interpretations are correct and I am sure that Nemmerle can respond directly (and will) to any mistakes and false assumtions that I made. Also I would urge anyone to visit the Aquerra boards for more info about the world that we play in. It may clarify the story hour for those of you unfamiliar.
 

Ratchis

First Post
I think Beorth has stated things very well.

I will also add another tidbit from ratchis' POV. Since coming into the civilized lands, he has always been aware of and bothered by the ugly side of humanity. The expansion and disregard for any lives but their own is a sadly too true generalization.

Even if Ratchis did not agree with much that he saw on a moral level, he could still see the wisdom of Osiris to have such a group working toward their own ends and helping to balance a scale that must be balanced. Just as human expansion does not consider many moral issues in its head-long push outward, the druids here also do not constrain themselves with certain moral strictures and thus have a freer hand to deal with forces that do need a counter-balance.

As for many of the details of things (like the fingernails), Ratchis trusted the wisdom of Osiris (the main God of nature). He is a Ranger after all, and Nephyts is the daughter of Osiris. There are pantheistic aspects to worship in Aquerra.

Okay, enough from me.
 

Ciaran

First Post
Kazrack, Beorth and Ratchis have covered most of the bases, so there's little for me to add.

From a rules perspective, the players know that Osiris is a neutral god, with no moral bias towards good or evil. But from Martin's point of view, Osiris is a good god: he is the god of the crops, without whom civilization could not exist, and is the husband of Isis, the patron goddess of Martin's homeland of Thricia. So he assumes that Osiris' will is in the interest of the greater good.

Also, the druids of the Circle of Thorns are hardly more evil than some humans we've run into, such as the constable of Ogre's Bluff. We aren't going to go kill the constable, even if he persists in his efforts to persecute (or even kill) Ratchis, and we certainly aren't going to try and kill the chosen of Osiris.

- Eric
 

Well Done, Players

I think the explanations of the Circle were excellent, particularly the detailed explanation from Beorth's player (Dude, your FINGER! That's some painful RP there! ;) ).

Just goes to show that well-run D&D worlds can have as many shades of grey as the real world. Fantastic arc, Nemm.
 
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Malexin

First Post
Nemmerle,

Great stuff. I'd like to say thanks for taking the time to make your campaign available for others to read. I DM a game but can never find the time to put it on the boards, so its greatly appreciated when someone like you takes that extra step.
And Kudos to your players, they're great.
 

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