Out with the old (Game design traditions we should let go)

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Because D&D is an awful system with very few redeeming qualities?
If it's so awful and has so few redeeming qualities then how come so many people keep playing it; and not just playing the current edition but all editions previous incuding near-variants thereon?

It can't all be marketing - no matter how well something's marketed the consuming public eventually comes to recognize there's no value in it. So it must have something else going for it.
 

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overgeeked

B/X Known World
I don't play D&D anymore but considering that it's the most popular system by far out there it obviously appeals to a lot of people.
Honestly, I think it’s because they took out all the challenge and made it so it’s trivial to play it like a video game but that playing it like a video game isn’t quite the default. Except healing. And travel. And…
 

Fenris-77

Small God of the Dozens
Supporter
Honestly, I think it’s because they took out all the challenge and made it so it’s trivial to play it like a video game but that playing it like a video game isn’t quite the default. Except healing. And travel. And…
You should play in one of my games. It might make you you reconsider the trivial nature of what you're doing.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Man, I could not disagree more. To me, system matters. Star Wars makes for a very different game in WEG's D6, Wizards of the Coast's D20, and Fantasy Flight Games' Genesys. It would be even more different in Savage Worlds or GURPS.
It’s weird, but I completely agree. System does absolutely matter. But, to me, that’s the problem. System shapes and focuses and limits the imagination.

I’ll quote Jonathan Tweet and Robin Laws from Over the Edge.

“And why the simple mechanics? Two reasons: First, complex mechanics invariably channel and limit the imagination; second, my neurons have better things to do than calculate numbers and refer to charts all evening. Complex mechanics, in their effort to tell you what you can do, generally do a fair job of implying what you cannot do.”

I’d rather a simple, light system that does most things well where the referee can making rulings when they need to rather than a tome That Must Be Obeyed.
Even in a game like TORG, which is explicitly multi-genre, the different genres are given different mechanical expressions. The difference between the Living Land and Tharkold is not just that one has strong miracles and the other strong tech and magic – they also work differently. The Living Land is a world that rewards living life to its fullest, acting on primal instincts, and taking risks, while Tharkold is a place where the strong dominate the weak and inflicting pain is rewarded.
Right. Now a question. Why can’t you achieve the same result diegeticly? Weird word, I know, but it means in the fiction, basically. Why does the Living Land rewarding living life to the fullest have to be mechanically handled? Can’t you hand out in fiction rewards that do the same thing?
 
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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Well as they found out with 4e, if you kill too many sacred cows, it affects the game's identity. There are some elements that are such D&D-isms, for example, you couldn't imagine the game without them in place.

I'm sure that holds true for a lot of older games.
 

If it's so awful and has so few redeeming qualities then how come so many people keep playing it; and not just playing the current edition but all editions previous incuding near-variants thereon?
Just because something has a substantial following does not mean it is any good. The Kardashians are an excellent example.
 

I don't play D&D anymore but considering that it's the most popular system by far out there it obviously appeals to a lot of people
Just because something appeals to a number of people does nothing to establish its value. Justin Bieber is a good example.
 

Staffan

Legend
Right. Now a question. Why can’t you achieve the same result diegeticly? Weird word, I know, but it means in the fiction, basically. Why does the Living Land rewarding living life to the fullest have to be mechanically handled? Can’t you hand out in fiction rewards that do the same thing?
Because I want the system to handle that sort of thing. The system tells me what the fiction means. In the Cyberpapacy, Cybercatholicism is the One True Faith and anyone trying to invoke a miracle of another faith is causing a contradiction. In Aysle, items used to perform mighty deeds will naturally take on an enchantment. The Living Land abhors death, so it is easier to survive severe injuries, and you heal faster from them, but once you're dead the land will rapidly dispose of your corpse. These are all mechanical effects that describe how those realities differ from one another.

And moving to other games, they impose different feels on their settings. Playing Star Wars with d20 Saga and its grids and levels and hit points feels completely different from the heroic nature and two-dimensional task resolution system of Genesys. In The Troubleshooters, PCs are rewarded with metacurrency for being captured (as appropriate to the genre), and can't be killed unless they specifically decide to raise the stakes by placing themselves in Mortal Peril (or if they do something to abuse their plot armor, like jumping off a tall building because they can't be killed anyway). Sometimes I like that free-wheeling gameplay, and other times I enjoy the more tactical nature of Pathfinder 2.

Just like some movies are Saving Private Ryan, and other movies are Army of Darkness. Both are excellent movies, but they do very different things. Come to think of it, there are a pair of movies that do show what happens when you use the same setting in different systems: Alien and Aliens. They have very different feels despite having the same lead character and a similar threat, but one is a horror movie and the other is a high-octane action movie.
 

overgeeked

B/X Known World
Because I want the system to handle that sort of thing.
Awesome. The system should handle those things because you want the system to handle those things. Gotcha. But that doesn't mean the system has to. That's my point. Some people want the system to handle those things, others don't. But there's no cosmic rule that the system must. It is possible to handle those things without the system. It's how people have played for decades. It's how the people who created the first published role-playing games played.

I want the fiction and the fictional context to handle those things. Because it's less work for me. I don't have to memorize as much or look up as much when we handle that ourselves rather than "offloading" the work to the mechanics. It's not really offloading as we have to read, re-read, re-re-read...look it up...look it up again...memorize it...forget it...relearn it after a few months away from active play. On and on.
The system tells me what the fiction means.
Weird. I always thought the referee/players gave the fiction meaning.
In the Cyberpapacy, Cybercatholicism is the One True Faith and anyone trying to invoke a miracle of another faith is causing a contradiction. In Aysle, items used to perform mighty deeds will naturally take on an enchantment. The Living Land abhors death, so it is easier to survive severe injuries, and you heal faster from them, but once you're dead the land will rapidly dispose of your corpse. These are all mechanical effects that describe how those realities differ from one another.
Those are all setting information. Not mechanics. I can use the sentences above and do the same thing without whatever mechanics those books present to do the same thing. Again, it doesn't have to be done through mechanics.
And moving to other games, they impose different feels on their settings. Playing Star Wars with d20 Saga and its grids and levels and hit points feels completely different from the heroic nature and two-dimensional task resolution system of Genesys. In The Troubleshooters, PCs are rewarded with metacurrency for being captured (as appropriate to the genre), and can't be killed unless they specifically decide to raise the stakes by placing themselves in Mortal Peril (or if they do something to abuse their plot armor, like jumping off a tall building because they can't be killed anyway). Sometimes I like that free-wheeling gameplay, and other times I enjoy the more tactical nature of Pathfinder 2.
Exactly. Sometimes it's fun to dig deep into the tactics and mechanics, other times it's fun to free-form it. Nothing wrong with either. Your preferences tend to run more into mechanics than mine. I prefer everything to be handled by the people at the table rather than a tome. Saves time and brainpower. Also much quicker.
Just like some movies are Saving Private Ryan, and other movies are Army of Darkness. Both are excellent movies, but they do very different things. Come to think of it, there are a pair of movies that do show what happens when you use the same setting in different systems: Alien and Aliens. They have very different feels despite having the same lead character and a similar threat, but one is a horror movie and the other is a high-octane action movie.
Which is weird because the Alien RPG covers Alien and Aliens with the same game system, just with some tweaks.

But yeah, different stories and different feel. Mechanics can do that. But so can the people at the table.
 

MGibster

Legend
Ugh, MDC was the worst idea ever. I was a Glitter Boy in a Rifts game, and I was terrified of ever getting out of the robot. Meanwhile, there was an Amazon in our group who not only had MDC buck nekked, but then she had a fraggin' WETSUIT from Rifts: Atlantis for MORE MDC!
I think MDC is a fantastic idea. I don't believe the impelmentation in RIFTs was great, but it makes a lot of sense. A .45 caliber pistol isn't going to be able to penetrate the armor on a Sherman tank. MDC, if implemented properly, would avoid number creep.
 

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