Outclassed, head too head, and belongings, items weapons save vs spells such as fireb

[Sir ThornCrest]

By 10th level, spellcasters will dominate the campaign, in my opinion. A fighter may have a lot of feats, hit points and be able to cause and receive a lot of damage-this is a given. But it is the Wizard casting teleport and other spells that will shine well beyond the ability to swing a weapon with increasing accuracy. Casting forcewall compared to a couple of combat feats, those combat feats looked extremly impressive at lower levels but are no match for a chain lightening spell.
Lets say a fighter has all 18's and for fair comparison so does the Wizard, and they are both 10th level. There is only 1 combat situation that will favor the fighter, and that would be the Wizard standing next to him, with a "be gentle look on his face"! In any other situation the Wizard is going to be favored 10 too 1...in bookie terms. With 1 or 2 will based spells the fighter is no more, a couple of reflex based spells and he will be blown away. Casting fort based spells would be only out of pure desperation as the fighters fort save will be thru th roof!. Agian the fighter barely has a fighting chance. The fighter will have to win initiative and get withen melee range-close the distance before the wizard takes to flight or turns inviso etc, if he does get away he will surely pummel the fighter from above with a 1/2 dozen big boom! spells.
The fighters reflex save vs. a 10 d6 fireball show that he's is going to fail more than make, with every fail his items, weapons, armor all must save, their saves are about 50/50 on average, hard metals, armor bla bla bla...A Wizard will lay to rest the fighter 9 out of 10 times. Question how does your DM make your items, weapons, armor both magic and none vs a failed save against a fireball? And if the fighter fails is he knocked prone? Does he lose his attacks that round due to the concussion etc...how do you guys/gals play this-I have found that every playing group will approach this somewhat differently.
I understand "balance" between the classes, but that balance is best noticed 5th to 8th level, after that it is all spellcaster, before that it is the combatants that rule. Maybe thats the challenge of being a spell caster, to survive the early levels so they can thrive in the later levels......Or so it would seem in my 20 yrs of gaming that has always been the case...
SUMMARY
1) How does your group play the spells like fireball and the damage to belongings, and is the recipient knocked prone or at half move or does he act as if nothing has happened (this of course being the favorite option for the fighters)
2) High level spells vs high level fighter feats, whats your take?
3) Do you feel there is a balance thru all levels, or do you see it otherwise? Perhaps like I do=low levels (1-4) go to the combatants, mid levels (5-8) are the truly balanced levels, and all above goes to the spellcaster.
4)

 

[shilsen]

1) How does your group play the spells like fireball and the damage to belongings, and is the recipient knocked prone or at half move or does he act as if nothing has happened (this of course being the favorite option for the fighters)

We play it as in the standard rules, i.e. belongings don't take damage unless a target rolls a 1 on the save, and fireballs don't knock you prone or anything else like that.

2) High level spells vs high level fighter feats, whats your take?

Apples and oranges

3) Do you feel there is a balance thru all levels, or do you see it otherwise? Perhaps like I do=low levels (1-4) go to the combatants, mid levels (5-8) are the truly balanced levels, and all above goes to the spellcaster.

I don't see it with the breakup you do, and I do think the classes are a lot more balanced in 3e (and even more in 3.5e), but at the higher levels the spellcasters do have an edge over non-spellcasters.

I should also add that when comparing the role of classes in the game, comparing which is most effective at killing the other is a waste of time. In the vast majority of D&D games, there are a team of PCs working together, and the real test of a PC's viability is whether it can contribute to the group dynamic.

 

[Scion]

1) equipment only needs to save if the person wearing it rolls a 1 on their save (or if the equipment is targetted directly, but then it gets a save useing its own all good saves or the bearers base, whichever is higher).

Unless the effect specifically says that it knocks someone prone then it does not. Fireball and the like tend to have no actual force, they are merely a blast of hot with no push.

2) With enough different sources for feats the fighter can get a good selection. While there should be more higher end feats there are quite a few good combos out there now.

3) Fighters themselves tend to be a bit weak in my opinion, but overall the game is pretty close to balanced when used properly. In this case that would be a ton of different feat choices for the fighters (hundreds of feats to pick through at least) along with the proper conditions in the game (4 appropriate challenges per day).

On a one vs one basis the fighter types have some very good equipment choices to really help out. A ring of spell turning, cloak of resistance, and a few other items and they will be sitting pretty with the caster not being able to do much save for running away (aka teleport or the like, which counts as a win for the fighter type).

There are of course overpowered spells, but then there are also overpowered feats, and overpowered items. I personally make improved invis only stay invis for an extra attack (ie invis once you try to attack you are visible, improved invis you get one attack and then the next works just like invis) along with removing all save or dies and giving a few other buffs to the casters to make up for the loss.

I have been in games where casters were gods (usually because there was only 1 battle per day and a pile of other reasons), where fighter types rules supreme (caster classes might as well not even show up, nothing ever mattered between saves, SR, resistances, immunities, etc etc), and where it was balanced.

Generally, if you follow the guidelines properly and people try to shore up their characters weaknesses things work out fine. Too much specialization tends to lead to massive gaps in the defenses for all classes, and depending on what that weakness is it can ruin the game for that person (such as having a low will save).

 

[Crothian]

1) How does your group play the spells like fireball and the damage to belongings, and is the recipient knocked prone or at half move or does he act as if nothing has happened (this of course being the favorite option for the fighters)
2) High level spells vs high level fighter feats, whats your take?
3) Do you feel there is a balance thru all levels, or do you see it otherwise? Perhaps like I do=low levels (1-4) go to the combatants, mid levels (5-8) are the truly balanced levels, and all above goes to the spellcaster.

In between paragraphs, place a blank line. It will make these long posts much easier to read.

1) By the rules. Oddly enough, that is what they are there for.

2) Spells have the advantage of more bang for the buck, but they are finite. Sure those 5 fireballs will dominate a combat, but the Wizard can run out of spells fast. Fighters never run out of uses of many of their feats. They can power attack as often as they want, spring attack as many times as needed. Fighters are the marathon runners, they excel over a long period of time. Wizards are the sprinters, they are flashy but not good for the long haul.

3) Balance the whole way through.

 

[Thanee]

Well, in my experience with 3.5 so far, non-spellcasters are not weak at higher levels. Yes, magic is a dominating force by then, but it is not so overwhelming as you put it.

Pretty much all classes still have their place at higher levels. The revision was a huge step to alleviate this discrepancy. Maybe not big enough, but certainly close.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Plane Sailing]

There is only 1 combat situation that will favor the fighter, and that would be the Wizard standing next to him, with a "be gentle look on his face"! In any other situation the Wizard is going to be favored 10 too 1...in bookie terms. With 1 or 2 will based spells the fighter is no more, a couple of reflex based spells and he will be blown away. Casting fort based spells would be only out of pure desperation as the fighters fort save will be thru th roof!. Agian the fighter barely has a fighting chance. The fighter will have to win initiative and get withen melee range-close the distance before the wizard takes to flight or turns inviso etc, if he does get away he will surely pummel the fighter from above with a 1/2 dozen big boom! spells.

You forget that a 10th level fighter might be a master archer (or even a passable archer) and have cheap magic items that allow him to allow him to see invisible (e.g. hand of glory). With the right feats he could fill the wizard full of magic arrows and outlast his puny fireballs (especially if he has even a minor ring of fire resistance). By 10th level *any* fighter who relies upon getting to melee range is likely to be in trouble if he doesn't have alternative (ranged) tactics to use as options.

As shilsen says, testing out classes in head to head situations is pretty pointless. The balance of 3e classes is an "equal fun" balance. If the DM runs an adventure with only one encounter a day, the spell using classes will really shine. If the DM runs an adventure with 100 encounters a day the spell using classes will seem relatively useless.

 

[Saeviomagy]

At high levels, the magical overtakes the mundane.

The mundane.

I'll repeat that again. The mundane.

Crossing a river is mundane. Even crossing a fast river is mundane the second time. Even crossing a fast river made of lava is mundane if you've crossed enough rivers. Magic makes this problem irrelevant - when the PC's get to the river of fast flowing lava, they say "mr gm, give us a break! Pick something which will challenge us. For now, we'll just expend a low level spell and cross it without incident".

Travelling cross-country is mundane.

Keeping track of rations is mundane.

Running faster than the monsters so you can get away is mundane.

All these things are boring to do once you've reached high levels - you've done them all so many times, they've lost their impact. So there are spells that stop you from having to do them.

After that, most classes at high level will continue to fill the niche they did at low level. Thieves still contend with traps. Barbarians still kill stuff and use some wilderness skills. Monks still bounce around ineffectually. Fighter still do absolutely nothing except fight.

And there's your problem. If you don't want to do absolutely nothing except fight, don't play a fighter. If you DO want to, you'll find that the plethora of feats you get is more than a match for any other pure fighting class. A wizard gets one 3rd level slot at 5th level. If he fills it with fireball, you could say that his career has been building towards him casting fireball, which gives him the ability to kill lots of low-level minions rapidly.

If the fighter wanted to do that, he's got whirlwind attack.

At 17th level, the fighter has whirlwind attack with a large reach weapon, lots of damage bonuses and a very high attack bonus. His 3rd level fireball-equivalent is still probably more potent than the wizards 9th level fireball-equivalent (assuming he's not a fool).

The really big difference is that the wizard has the choice to fill his slots with spells which do not contribute to combat, or contribute in different ways. The fighter is stuck with what he picked.

Finally - the fighter is in a party - his tactics will vary depending on what tactics the wizard is using. That's where his flavour comes from.

Oh, and the warrior in your example is a moron. Hasn't he heard of a bow??

 

[azmodean]

Similar to what Saeviomagy said, magic completely overpowers mundane, but fighters are not limited to mundane equipment, are they? See invisibility, elemental resistance, spell resistance, flying, these are all available with the proper equipment. It is possible for a wizard to cast something that the fighter is not prepared for, but if they don't manage to get it through the fighter's defenses, or if the fighter has the drop on them, they are in trouble, because the fighter can use his most powerfull anti-spellcasting ability, reading a ranged attack contingent on the spellcaster casting a spell.

The fighter has an advantage in one other area, he has endurance. If a spellcaster fires off their best spells and the fighter escapes afterwards, the spellcaster had better hope the fighter won't be able to catch up to him for a full day, because give a well-prepared fighter a few minutes (healing potions) and they are at full strength again, while the lvl 10 spellcaster is now effectively a level 7 spellcaster, or maybe a lvl 5 spellcaster if they cast all of their level 4 spells too.

One last comment, if you are going to match up a fighter versus a mage, don't take a standard fighter and match them up against a standard mage, take a fighter who is self-sufficient and match them up against a self-sufficient mage. There are a lot of things a fighter can do to protect himself from magic that usually is not worth it since there are spellcasters in the party to handle that.