Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Thanee]

Common misconception here.

Hmm... yeah, maybe I havn't read this thoroughly enough.

So it's working more like Suggestion then with the added effect, that if you are prevented from following it, you get the penalties. And the lil no save part, of course.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

IMHO:

Timestop: It's not broken, mostly because a) it does NOT stack with another Timestop (sorry!), and b) you have a hard time affecting a target (DBF is the best you can do??! I'll see you in the arena!).

Geas: Huh. I'll have to read that one over again.....

Entangle: If you are *ever* outside during combat, this is the RAW 1st level spell to have, bar none. Briar Web is just gravy.

Hideous Laughter: Yep, it could be a problem...but change Hold Person instead.

"Stat buff" spells: They're fine, but YMMV. Still, 1 hr per level was *way* too long.

 

[Sejs]

- Polymorph required a Con check (System Shock) or die.

Lost one of my favorite characters to that back in 2nd ed. Party was investigating this underground city of evil, and we're trying to be sneaky about it so we're not carrying an open light source. My PC's human, and the only one who can't see in the dark, the other two being an elf and a half-elf. After leading my blind arse around for a while, the enchanter pipes up and says "Hey, I know! I've got Polymorph Other. I'll just change you into an elf so you can see, Kaz, then once we're back up top I can change you back into your old self." Sounds good. Enchanter does her thing, and bam. I'm an elf.


DM nods his approval of the idea, looks over and say "Cool, go ahead and roll me quick system shock and you're set."
Which I blow.
By 1.
Killing me.
15 levels down the drain because getting pointy ears and night vision was just too much for my body to handle. *grumbles sourly*

 

[Pax]

With regards to the original question, check out Reality Maelstrom from the MotP.

A tactical nuclear weapon, if I've ever seen one. Launch it at an army of mooks of 6th level or less, and they're pretty much all gone.

Not bad for a 7th level spell...

Andargor

You can do the same with a Cloudkill. Widened, if ABsolutely neccessary. And that's a 6th level spell.

By the time you're throwing 6th and 7th level spells, 6th level mooks aren't supposed to be more than a (mild) drain on party resources.

 

[Pax]

IMHO:

Timestop: It's not broken, mostly because a) it does NOT stack with another Timestop (sorry!), and b) you have a hard time affecting a target (DBF is the best you can do??! I'll see you in the arena!).

Maximised Timestop (via Greater Rod), followed by [Maximised Extended Incendiary Cloud (Rod) and Maximised Extended Incendiary Cloud (Rod)], [Extended Acid Fog (self) and Extended Acid Fog(self)], [Extended Acid Fog (self) and Extended Acid Fog(self)], [Extended Acid Fog (self) and Extended Acid Fog(self)]. Wrap it all up with [Quickened Dimensional Lock (self) and Forcecage (solid cube; self)], then sit back and read a good book while the six Acid Fogs and two maximised Incendiary Clouds - all eight spells under the effect of Energy Substitution: Sonic, of course - pile on 12d6+48 sonic damage per round, for (say) fifty rounds, assuming 25th level characters.

Unless your opponent has sonic resistance, he's in for a WORLD of hurt (even an epic spellcaster will have some trouble with concentration checks deriving from THAT much continuing damage - an average DC of 60 plus spell level). The total damage would come to 600d6+2400; it just takes TIME, and is far more subject to energy resistance (even sonic resistance (5) will cut 40hp per round off of the damage, sadly).

And without a disintegrate spell handy, they're not getting out of there, either.

So. Outside an arena ... it's potentially a very useful, and very powerful, strategy. In an arena ... you can probably count on your opponent having useful defense(s) and/or escape mechanism(s). ^_^ Then again, balancing for an arena is a different matter from balancing for a "Classic" sort of D&D campaign.

"Stat buff" spells: They're fine, but YMMV. Still, 1 hr per level was *way* too long.

I tend to like the idea of 10 minutes per level. Enough that they're good for either one mid-travel encounter, or an entire "day's" worth of effort at a single site-based adventure. ^_^

 

[Kalendraf]

The Summon Monster spells. They need a total overhaul...most of the stuff is no more than a speedbump in combat at the level you get it.

I beg to differ. My group uses summons to good effect. May depend partly on party make-up though. The ability to suddenly provide flanking for the rogue or an extra set of creatures to tie up the enemy for just a round or two can easily sway the course of battle.

Daze Monster is pretty silly. For a second level spell you daze one creature with no more than 6 HD for a single round. make it like 1d4+1 rounds and it might be worth it.

And yes, Sound Burst is pretty weak...

From the sound of it, perhaps you are not handling Stun correctly. When stunned, a creature drops all items in their hands and is much easier to hit. Picking those items back up provokes an attack of opportunity. A 1 round stun usually winds up acting like this: Stun foe, it drops its weapon, warriors charge it, getting in attacks effectively at +4 or higher (+2 from charge, -2 AC on stunned opponent and opponent loses dex bonus to AC). The drawbacks from the charge are ignored since the creature is stunned this round. On the next round, when the foe tries to pick up its weapon it suffers a bunch more attacks of opportunity, this time often with multiple creatures flanking it including the party rogue(s). Combine all those together, and it's pretty hard for that foe to survive to even make another attack! Hence, a 1 round stun is often fatal. Of course the reverse situation can happen to the PCs if they are unlucky.

In regards to sound burst, the stun is very useful as noted above, but as an area effect that has no save, it's pretty effective in a pinch. Soften up some tightly bunched foes, kill off an opponent who's near death, and since its sonic damage, it overcomes damage resistance problems. Works well against enemy spellcasters or rogues who tend to have low fortitude saves. In fact, I've seen a few higher level casters totally owned by this spell. In one case, the cleric had a wand of sound burst and was able to essentially stun lock the enemy caster. Each blast dealt another 1d8 sonic damage, and after a few rounds, dead caster. Funny thing is, the caster was massively buffed with all the defensive and protective spells, and would have otherwise been very hard to bring down. Since then, I've been a believer in the power of sound burst.

If you want to be a cruel DM, you can use the same tactic against your party spellcaster(s). For example, pit them against a group of enemies including a sorcerer or bard with a pretty high stat bonus for a high DC and keep nailing the spellcaster(s) and/or rogues round after round. It's likely the PCs will get stunned multiple rounds, all the while taking damage. It's bound to show them how powerful that spell is, as well as frustrating the bejeezus out of them during that fight. Can be especially painful when that 1 sound burst keeps hitting multiple PCs!

BTW, I think it's cool that bards now get sound burst in 3.5. That was a very good change, though it competes with a several other equally cool spells at 2nd level.

 

[Thanee]

@Pax: What, you don't enter a high level arena without immunity to all elements?

But anyways, Time Stop is quite a killer, there are plenty really evil spells you can use in conjunction...

Bye
Thanee

 

[Kalendraf]

I tend to like the idea of 10 minutes per level. Enough that they're good for either one mid-travel encounter, or an entire "day's" worth of effort at a single site-based adventure. ^_^

This is exactly why 10 min/lvl is too long for these spells. When given the choice of the buff spells with a duration of 10 min/level or longer vs. other 2nd level spells, players will opt for a full set of buff spells and little or nothing else in their 2nd level spell slots. When the duration is reduced to 1 min/level, they actually start memorizing other spells as options.

My groups still use the 3.5 version of the buff spells, but I typically only see 1 or 2 on any given list of spells per character. IMHO, that's the way they should be used. Players just need to get over the broken mentality of certain 3e spell versions and move on. Try out the buff spells with 1 min/level and most find they are still good, but they aren't the braindead choices they used to be like this:

DM: You find that the stone slab moves to reveal stairs leading down.
Cleric: I cast bull's strength on all fighters, endurance on everyone. Gee, I guess I'm out of 2nd level spells...again Oh, I guess I'll cast light on my mace.
Wizard: I cast cat's grace on myself, the rogue and the fighter, and then cast owl's wisdom on myself, and the cleric. Then I put up my mage armor. Hah, I'm out of 2nd level spells again too.

 

[Khristos]

Time Stop does stack... There is nothing inherantly against except personal opinion. Besides DBF is for chumps a mxaimized cloudkill inside a forcecage with a dimensional lock and a projected image silenced gives me all the time in the world to eat a sandwich while you die (I like the slow con death) sure you might get a restoration off if I miss my greater dispel counterspell..... merry christmas

 

[Majere]

who the hell casts the new 3.5 buffs ?
They dont stack with anything useful, and +4 items to your main stat really arent that hard to get ahold of.
The new buffs suck, anyone who takes them is wasting a spell slot.
Make them 10 minutes a level, people wont take them after 6-8th level anyway because they wont stack with magical items the party already has, so at least give them a decent duration while they are of some limited use.

Majere