Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[DM-Rocco]

Okay, I foud the Miasma spell. If you hate that, you will really hate this, Crisis of Breath.


It is a 3rd level telepath power, it basically does the same thing, but instead of filling your lungs with gas, you force your opponent to expel all air from their lungs, but the result is the same.

You do get a will save, at least in 3.5, otherwise it is amost exactly the same, with this more important exception, you can augment it. If you spend 6 extra power points you can effect up to four additional creatures, and for every 2 power points you spend in augmentation, the DC for the save increases by 1. So, if you hate Miasma, I can only imagine what you think of Crisis of Breath.

 

[Scion]

crisis of breath vs miasma

crisis has a much lesser duration, has a save, humanoid only without augmentation, compulsion, mind effecting (not exactly a huge benefit, as things that dont breath are usually what is immune), and is easy to get around (every 10 rounds or so you simply spend your standard action to regain all of your rounds of holding breath.

Vs the death that is miasma.. with no way to regain breath, much longer duration and no save.

Is there even a comparison here? Crisis seems more like an annoyance that might matter now and then, maybe. Miasma is almost guarenteed death.

Edit: I was a bit harsh in the comparison crisis definately has its own power, but with its much shortened duration and the ability of the target to ignore it.. well.. the save to negate at the beginning is especially a power hit. So miasma, fire it off (extended even) and run away.. wait for whatever it is to die.. crisis you cannot do the same for, although it can be potentially more dangerous in an actual combat situation, but then that is much more reasonable than 'kill anything that breathes if you have a bit of time'.

 

[Thanee]

Yep, Crisis of Breath is a good power, but Miasma is a completely broken killer spell. There is no comparison between these two.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Destil]

Which leads to the question: When is a spell overpowered? A spell might be ok when used alone, but deadly when it is combined with another spell. In this case: Fly and Improved Invisibility.

Basicly, I agree. Arguing that such and such a spell is overpowered because you can use this and that and then do this and some of this with it is silly. Who know what's overpowered about that sort of combination?

Example: People talk about timestop and delayed blast fireballs. Per the rules, you don't know how long time stop lasts (if a spell has a random duration the DM rolls it without the players knowing, at least in 3.0). So you need to just kinda guess when to set off the fireballs. Not a big deal.

People start adding a metamagic rod and I cry foul, though. Because we don't know if it's timestop or the rod that's overpowered at that point (I know which I have a problem with, though).

 

[DM-Rocco]

After comparing them I would say that they both are just as deadly, of course I would agree that miasma is the better killer, if you are looking at just killing one creature. If you have the power points to spend and the manifester level to use them, Crisis of Breath could potentially be worse.

Yes, Crisis of Breath has a saving throw, but it can increase, where Miasma can not. Of course, if you don't have spell resistance you are up a creek without a paddle if someone casts Miasma on you but, Crisis of Breath can kill everyone in the final encounter of the dungeon with the casting of just one spell. By effecting multiple targets, for every four you effect you add 3 to the save DC, that is huge. If they can make that save, then they can make the save against Miasma, run you down, kill you, and in most campaigns, end the spell.

I agree that Miasma is a better one on one killer, but I think that for its money, Crisis of breath, can potenially be better and is at least comparable.

 

[Thanee]

The no save part makes Miasma stand out.

I mean, even Sleep is a killer spell, but has a save. Miasma is just automatic death. There's almost no way to avoid it.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Mephistopheles]

I know what you mean, Nail, but I think you are very wrong there.

Control is only, if you can actually direct actions, otherwise there is no control, and ongoing control is, if you can do that throughout the duration, quite obviously. Dominate allows this, but none of the other spells really do. Some don't even allow control of any kind (i.e. charm).

With most of those spells you give the target a command or a course of action, which it follows, but you cannot change it later, thus no ongoing control.

Also, only dominate (from what I can recall) actually lists control in the spell description.

And I'm pretty sure, that's exactly how it is meant.
Otherwise it would be insanely powerful, you are right there!

Bye
Thanee

I think Thanee is on the right track with regard to the the workings of protection from chaos/evil/good/law (hereafter referred to as protection from alignment).

The protection provided against summoned creatures can be useful but it is not guaranteed. Granted it will be fairly effective as the spell resistance of summoned creatures (of those that have it, anyway) is generally low enough that it will not allow the summoned creature to bypass the protection from alignment effect. I wouldn't go so far as to say it makes summoned creatures useless, though.

Regarding protection from alignment being overpowered on the basis of the protection it provides versus mental control I think we first need to get a solid understanding of what "mental control" actually is to see what it protects against.

1) From the protection from evil descriptive text:

the barrier blocks any attempt ... to exercise mental control over the creature (including enchantment (charm) effects and enchantment (compulsion) effects that grant the caster ongoing control over the subject, such as dominate person). The protection does not prevent such effects from targeting the protected creature, but it suppresses the effect for the duration of the protection from evil effect. If the protection from evil effect ends before the effect granting mental control does, the would-be controller would then be able to mentally command the controlled creature.

2) From the 3.0 FAQ, which should still be relevant for this issue:

"Mental control" includes all spells of the school of Enchantment that have the Charm subschool ... also includes some Enchantment spells of the Compulsion subschool if those spells grant the caster ongoing control over the subject; such spells include dominate person and dominate monster.

Compulsions that merely dictate the subject's action at the time the spell takes effect are not blocked. Such spells include command, hold person, geas/quest, hypnotism, insanity, Otto's irresistible dance, random action, suggestion, and zone of truth.

So rather than concentrating on the subschools of Charm and Compulsion the important distinction seems to be "mental control". All of the spells in question have the Mind-Affecting descriptor so that may seem like a flimsy distinction to make, but it does seem to be a valid distinction unless you want to extend the range of spells subject to blocking by protection from alignment to all Compulsions or even all Mind-Affecting spells, which would obviously be a mistake.

Based on items 1 and 2, then, here's my understanding of the scope of protection versus mental control provided by protection from alignment in the form of two examples.

***

Example

Tom thinks I'm a jerk so I cast charm person on him and now he thinks I'm a champ. I then cast dominate person on Dick and give him a command to do one thousand pushups, and then I cast suggestion on Harry and suggest that he do one thousand pushups. Dick and Harry both drop and start doing pushups while Tom fetches me a beer.

Next I cast protection from alignment on Tom, Dick, and Harry. The charm is suppressed by protection from alignment so Tom goes back to thinking I'm a jerk and gives the beer he just fetched for me a good shake up before handing it over. The compulsions are not suppressed by protection from alignment, so both Dick and Harry should keep doing pushups. If I try to mentally command Dick to do something else, though, he'd be protected from that control by protection from alignment. When the protection from alignment expires Tom will apologize for shaking up my beer, I'll be able to mentally command Dick to do something else, and Harry will just keep on doing pushups.

***

Example

I cast protection from alignment on Tom, Dick and Harry. Then I cast charm person on Tom, dominate person on Dick and mentally command him to do one thousand pushups, and suggestion on Harry with the suggestion being that he do one thousand pushups.

Tom will be charmed but protection from alignment will suppress the charm effect and so he will tell me where to stick my beer, Dick will be protected from my control by protection from alignment although he is dominated, while Harry - who of the three is the only one who has not been subjected to mental control - will drop and start doing pushups. When protection from alignment expires Tom will apologize and go grab me a beer, I will be able to mentally command Dick to do his pushups, while Harry just keeps toiling away on the pushups.

***

Assuming my understanding and the examples are correct protection from alignment does not seem overpowered against mental control effects, particularly considering the short duration of the spell (1 min./level, or 10 min./level for magic circle against alignment) relative to the long durations (typically hours or days) of the spells it protects against.