Overpowered/Underpowered Spells?

[Nail]

Dark Dragon: excellent post and set-up....

....but you kinda lead us along there, eh? That is: this was an offensively optimized BBEG in a "dream" setting among non-optimized PCs......PCs that did, apparently, do things that were well-played. Your first post didnt give us that information.

Re: Over powered combinations
It's true that this wizard kicked butt given his pre-cast spells. That doesn't make *any* of the spells he cast over-powered....that's the "over-powered" encounter, rather than spell.

 

[Thanee]

Which leads to the question: When is a spell overpowered?

Well, definitely not based on such a heavily stacked situation alone.

BTW, was that "vivid dream" part decided upon after the TPK?

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dark Dragon]

Dark Dragon: excellent post and set-up....

....but you kinda lead us along there, eh? That is: this was an offensively optimized BBEG in a "dream" setting among non-optimized PCs......PCs that did, apparently, do things that were well-played. Your first post didnt give us that information.

Sorry, but I wasn't at home when I wrote the first posts about the encounter. When I was back, I checked my old D&D stuff and found the wizard and combat sheet, so I clarified some points.

Re: Over powered combinations
It's true that this wizard kicked butt given his pre-cast spells. That doesn't make *any* of the spells he cast over-powered....that's the "over-powered" encounter, rather than spell.

Hmm, obviously it was overpowered. But from the point of CR, it was not: ECL 12 (wiz11 + 1 of difficulty because of surprise, perhaps another +1 because of special equipment) vs. party ECL of about 16 to 17 (oversized party of PCs level 15).

BTW, was that "vivid dream" part decided upon after the TPK?

No, I decided that before. PCs die normally (at least IMC) by bad luck (e.g. failed save) or stupidity, not because I want to see a certain PC dead.

 

[Thanee]

Ah I see, that's why you didn't hold back during the encounter.

ECL doesn't mean much. In the end, it's not more than a general guideline, which according to situation can vary extremely in result. You certainly did prove that.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Nail]

.... But from the point of CR, it was not: ECL 12 (wiz11 + 1 of difficulty because of surprise, perhaps another +1 because of special equipment) vs. party ECL of about 16 to 17 (oversized party of PCs level 15).

Before I go on: It looks like you gave this encounter quite a bit of thought, it had a reasonable purpose, and it provided a (perversely! ) fun game. Good job!

As to the EL: EL does a reasonable job as long as "all else is equal". The system is not capable of dealing with a specialized encounter such as this one....at least not without some major assumptions.

The surprise probably adds more than 1 to the EL...after all, it's not just the surprise, but the perfectly timed preparations of the attacking Wiz that made this thing so tough. Given that it resulted in a TPK, I'll wager the EL is at least 18, not 12.

Moreover, EL isn't a "linear" thing once you get over level 12 or so. I wonder what would happen if you used Upper Krust's system for calculating CR and EL. Anyone more familiar with that system than I am? I could muddle through it, but not quickly or accurately.


Still: thanks for telling us about it! It's fun.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The big thing that stood out to me is that this seemed very much like 15th level characters played by people who'd never been beyond 4th level under 3rd edition rules.

Using a crossbow at 15th?

Using horses without a single person with a ride skill?

Noone could fly?

Noone had an alternate vision mode?

Noone could spot or listen? (invis and flying doesn't trump the skills move silently and hide - they enhance them, sure...)

Noone could cast darkness or obscuring mist to level the playing field?

The cleric had no area-effect cure spells?

Noone had resistance to fire?

Noone tried to escape?

Bizarre.

 

[Dark Dragon]

The big thing that stood out to me is that this seemed very much like 15th level characters played by people who'd never been beyond 4th level under 3rd edition rules.

Using a crossbow at 15th?

Why not? The halfling had low Str, the crossbow she used was +2 ranged seeking and could fire three bolts per day of light that do additional damage to undead.

Using horses without a single person with a ride skill?

The ftr/pal/rgr was a very good rider, as well as the assassin and the halfing. IIRC, she had a pony.

Noone could fly?

Those with fly/teleport spells died before they could cast something....

Noone had an alternate vision mode?

That is? The group had two elven and two half-elven PCs...But no blindsight or so.

Noone could spot or listen? (invis and flying doesn't trump the skills move silently and hide - they enhance them, sure...)

No need to spot when the enemy is visible...Remember, the cleric brought the Improved Invisibility down. When the wizard got invisible again, it was too late to escape, the cleric was hurt badly in the rounds before.

Noone could cast darkness or obscuring mist to level the playing field?

Those who died in the first two rounds could certainly. And the wizard could certainly cast a fireball or two into the darkness/fog...

The cleric had no area-effect cure spells?

IIRC, he had prepared Healing Circle. That cures 1d8+14 hp (CL 14) in an area. Not very much, but that was after 3.0 rules.

Noone had resistance to fire?

One of the wizards had, but he died from Magic Missiles. The cleric had Energy Immunity: Electricity online. Don't ask me why.

Noone tried to escape?

Bizarre.

The assassin tried, but Magic Missiles killed his horse before he was killed by MMs...

 

[DM-Rocco]

Okay, for my two cents as a DM, I have banned Hide life, way to powerful, why even bother playing. Also, holy word really messes up a well thought out ambush, the PCs cast it ass the time. Enervation is way to powerful, back in .0 when you could keep adding empowers to it, you could easily make it more powerful that an energy drain. The ultimate in ppower is Time Regression from the psionic handbook. Time stop sucks, but being able to go back in time 1d4+1 rounds is just nuts, you don't like what Mords did to you, just undo it. Of course the 3.5 is a bit stricter with a one round duration, but if you have the extend feat, you could still go back and undo two rounds of combat, and usually, that is enough.

I have a question for all of you though what is Miasma and where can I find the description?

You guys keep mentioning it, but I can't find it and I don't know what it does.

 

[Thanee]

Miasma is a druid spell, which first appeared in Masters of the Wild.

It's a 4th level save-or-die spell... oh, wait... it doesn't allow a save, so you just die then, I guess.

The only "restriction" is, that it takes quite some time (a rather slow process of suffocating), but since it makes you unable to speak (fills your lungs and mouth with gas), it's a real killer against spellcasters.

Completely nuts.

It's reprinted in Complete Divine as a 6th level spell, I think, not sure about any changes, tho.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Dark Dragon]

Okay, for my two cents as a DM, I have banned Hide life, way to powerful, why even bother playing. Also, holy word really messes up a well thought out ambush, the PCs cast it ass the time. Enervation is way to powerful, back in .0 when you could keep adding empowers to it, you could easily make it more powerful that an energy drain. The ultimate in ppower is Time Regression from the psionic handbook. Time stop sucks, but being able to go back in time 1d4+1 rounds is just nuts, you don't like what Mords did to you, just undo it. Of course the 3.5 is a bit stricter with a one round duration, but if you have the extend feat, you could still go back and undo two rounds of combat, and usually, that is enough.

Yeah, Hide Life is quite a mess. It is now rewritten in my group, so that it is not that overpowered anymore. Still, it hasn't been used yet...

Holy Word can be a problem if not every character in a party is of good alignment.

Time Regression: Hehe, there was a similar spell in good ol' Tome of Magic. My druid really liked it, but the material component was quite expensive (and my druid was constantly low on cash). It was really fun to use that spell, but the druid used it only in dire circumstances.