Overrunning a Prone Target

[SBMC]

Here I'd apply a two-size penalty to the prone character (based on the logic that a meduim character is pretty darn small, effectively, when prone). Also, no bonus for four legs since the opponent is already prone. This effectively is a -8 for the prone character: not an auto-success, but pretty close in most cases.

Obviously the opponent stay prone even if you fail the opposed check, but you cannot get by.

I like that

 

[Artoomis]

It depends: the same action can never casue two AoO's. So if you don't ahve Improved Overrun - the opponent lets you by...then one AoO for entering the square and one for leaving a threatened area. If he does not let you by then in my book its all overrun so no matter what he only gets 1.

Not quite right. The AoO for entering the square is actually an AoO for leaving the threatened square you just left - leaving two threatened squares with the same movement does NOT generate two "opportunities" for AoOs from the same person.

 

[Artoomis]

Which would mean that the prone opponent needs to be able to threaten the overruner for the AoO to happen, since otherwise you are not leaving a threatened square?

(Edited for spelling)

A prone character does indeed threaten the squares around him as normal.

 

[Dross]

A prone character does indeef threaten thr squares around him as normal.

True, but what i was getting at (since i didn't clearly state it) is that you need to threaten to have an AoO when being overrun, you do not automatically get it going by what you said. Or another way, no weapon in hand/no unarmed strike feat/etc, no AoO when you are "overran" (or whatever the word is).

My problem is that the Overrun action and the provoked AoO is stated differently to the Bull Rush action and the AoO provoked, but in both cases you move into an opponent's square.

SRD 3.5
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (Improved bull rush negates AoO from defender)

Overrun Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.

Note the bit that is bolded specifically talks about threatening squares. That to me indicates that it's not the movement that provokes the AoO on Overrun but hte action itself.

 

[Artoomis]

True, but what i was getting at (since i didn't clearly state it) is that you need to threaten to have an AoO when being overrun, you do not automatically get it going by what you said. Or another way, no weapon in hand/no unarmed strike feat/etc, no AoO when you are "overran" (or whatever the word is).

Well, duh. Nothing here states or implies you get an AoO if you do not threaten.

My problem is that the Overrun action and the provoked AoO is stated differently to the Bull Rush action and the AoO provoked, but in both cases you move into an opponent's square.

SRD 3.5
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you move into the defender’s space. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from each opponent that threatens you, including the defender. (Improved bull rush negates AoO from defender)

Overrun Step 1: Attack of Opportunity. Since you begin the overrun by moving into the defender’s space, you provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.

Note the bit that is bolded specifically talks about threatening squares. That to me indicates that it's not the movement that provokes the AoO on Overrun but hte action itself.

You are right, the phrasing is different, but in each case the AoO is stated, if not clearly, to be from leaving a threatened square, so it's actually the same, despite the different wording.

P.S: If you spot glaring typos when you quote me please feel free to correct them!

 

[SBMC]

Not quite right. The AoO for entering the square is actually an AoO for leaving the threatened square you just left - leaving two threatened squares with the same movement does NOT generate two "opportunities" for AoOs from the same person.

I see your point; that it is sort of one movement; however the RAW does say that the act of entering anothers square generates an AoO and that leaving a threatend square does as well = Tow AoO's. Of course feats (such as Improved Overrun) overcome the square entering bit. I most certainly see your point and it makes total sense; but I am not sure that the RAW supports it (not that it has to).

 

[Artoomis]

I see your point; that it is sort of one movement; however the RAW does say that the act of entering anothers square generates an AoO and that leaving a threatend square does as well = Tow AoO's. Of course feats (such as Improved Overrun) overcome the square entering bit. I most certainly see your point and it makes total sense; but I am not sure that the RAW supports it (not that it has to).

Okay, you are making me resort to quotes form teh rules

Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.

Moving
Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step and the withdraw action.

Performing a Distracting Act
Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.

A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Creatures that take up less than 1 square of space typically have a natural reach of 0 feet, meaning they can’t reach into adjacent squares. They must enter an opponent’s square to attack in melee. This provokes an attack of opportunity from the opponent.

Now ask yourself WHY entering a square draws an AoO. Answer: Because to do so, you are generating a movement-related AoO which only happens when you leave a threatened square, and you must leave a threatened square to enter an occupied square. Assuming the occupier actually threatens anything, that is. This makes the rules work together - the "moving" rule for AoOs and the 0 reach rules.

Thus, per RAW, you only get a movement AoO from leaving a threatened square. See the first quote above.

 

[Stalker0]

I would go with a simple, the guy can through the square, provoking an AOO from the prone guy. Let the prone guy try a trip or something

 

[SBMC]

Okay, you are making me resort to quotes form teh rules

Now ask yourself WHY entering a square draws an AoO. Answer: Because to do so, you are generating a movement-related AoO which only happens when you leave a threatened square, and you must leave a threatened square to enter an occupied square. Assuming the occupier actually threatens anything, that is. This makes the rules work together - the "moving" rule for AoOs and the 0 reach rules.

Thus, per RAW, you only get a movement AoO from leaving a threatened square. See the first quote above.

The question here lies with whether after the overrun attempt your continued movement generates a second AoO. Is the overrun attempt and the movement one thing?

I see your point here as well - and once again it makes logical sense. However note that moving 5 feet never produces an AoO; so in this case (I entered your square from an adjacent square) the AoO you propose is created (by moving out of a threatened square) cannot be. Thus if there is an AoO here It is created by me entering the opponents square exclusively.

Now if I moved 10 feet through squares you threaten AND then made an overrun attempt against you do you get two AoO’s? The answer there would No; because you only get to make one AoO per AoO generated. I would say here the movement and the overrun attempt are one in the same.

IMO, and it is only an opinion:

A. The movement you make before you enter the opponents square and the overrun attempt itself are one “action”. Thus no matter how you slice it; anything prior to the actual overrun itself is a single AoO.

B. Based on what I read in the RAW the act of entering the opponents square generates an AoO and the leaving that same square after the successful overrun attempt and moving 10 feet is generates a second AoO – if after the overrun you only move 5 feet then no AoO.

This is one advantage of Improved Overrun: the feat says no AoO’s; I would hold that to mean before and after the actual overrun occurs.

 

[Stalker0]

However note that moving 5 feet never produces an AoO.

This is not true, a 5 foot step is a special game mechanic...it is not simply moving 5 feet.

For example, if your speed is reduced or hampered because of terrain, you can move 5 feet, but you CANNOT take a 5 foot step.