Overuse of monsters and magic.

[Hussar]

Oh, didn't mean to say it was short in magic, monsters or action, rather its "technology" level was low and in line with a classic Medievil fairy tale. So no canons, air ships, magically lit streets and houses, etc. Magic could be seen, but not by the everyday man (you had to be hanging around a wizard or amongst monsters).

In LOTR, magic is common enough to be made into children's toys. Granted, it's expensive, but, it is still children toys.

I would call Narsil an artifact level weapon because it was used to banish a god. Thinking that it might be a bit better than a masterwork longsword.

Elrond casts what is effectively Raise Dead on Frodo. Magic so powerful that only he could do it and the only thing that could undo the ringwraith's dagger.

As far as the low magic feel of older D&D, well, that's a bit misleading. Mystara had flying ships for example. Voyage of the Princess Ark was one of my favourite articles in Dragon back in the day. One of my earlier Dragon's also had very exact rules for how to transform a ship into a flying ship. As far as the modules being "one shots" well, considering how wide spread the anachronisms were in many modules, I'm thinking it wasn't so rare.

I'm sorry, but the idea that D&D has suddenly become more and more "magical" is just ignoring vast swaths of the game's history. Dragon constantly brought in ways of bringing technology into the game. The AD&D DMG had rules for bringing in Gamma World elements into your D&D game. On and on. How much "wahoo" stuff you had in your game depended on you, not the rules.

 

[White Whale]

In LOTR, magic is common enough to be made into children's toys. Granted, it's expensive, but, it is still children toys.

I would call Narsil an artifact level weapon because it was used to banish a god. Thinking that it might be a bit better than a masterwork longsword.

Elrond casts what is effectively Raise Dead on Frodo. Magic so powerful that only he could do it and the only thing that could undo the ringwraith's dagger.

As far as the low magic feel of older D&D, well, that's a bit misleading. Mystara had flying ships for example. Voyage of the Princess Ark was one of my favourite articles in Dragon back in the day. One of my earlier Dragon's also had very exact rules for how to transform a ship into a flying ship. As far as the modules being "one shots" well, considering how wide spread the anachronisms were in many modules, I'm thinking it wasn't so rare.

I'm sorry, but the idea that D&D has suddenly become more and more "magical" is just ignoring vast swaths of the game's history. Dragon constantly brought in ways of bringing technology into the game. The AD&D DMG had rules for bringing in Gamma World elements into your D&D game. On and on. How much "wahoo" stuff you had in your game depended on you, not the rules.

What are those magic toys you are referring to?

My impression is - like Valiant's - that the magic has become more abundant over the years. Whether this is supported by the rules or not, I don't know, but I believe that printing new books results in a power creep.

 

[Reynard]

My impression is - like Valiant's - that the magic has become more abundant over the years. Whether this is supported by the rules or not, I don't know, but I believe that printing new books results in a power creep.

I don't think it is a matter of prevalence. As others have pointed out, you couldn't throw a rock in an old skool dungeon without hitting a +1 sword. however, the place magic holds in the game and the metagame has changed, as has the general tone about how magic interacts with and fills the world has changed. While PCs and important NPCs always had magic equipment and abilities, the world at large was generally considered more mundane. Look at ToEE and the village of Hommlett -- no non-human NPCs, high level NPCs sequestered away from the population, etc...

The problem with trying to create a "realistic" world where "normal" people use magic like we use technology is that the PCs just become rich guys that can buy the best technology. It is better, I think, to reject the idea that every street would be lit by continual light spells and just hold on to the supposition that the PCs and their allies and adversaries are special and it is they, not Joe Farmer or Jane Merchant, who deal with the magic and mysteries of the world.

 

[shilsen]

The problem with trying to create a "realistic" world where "normal" people use magic like we use technology is that the PCs just become rich guys that can buy the best technology. It is better, I think, to reject the idea that every street would be lit by continual light spells and just hold on to the supposition that the PCs and their allies and adversaries are special and it is they, not Joe Farmer or Jane Merchant, who deal with the magic and mysteries of the world.

The problem disappears if you use the "wide magic" paradigm that Eberron does. Low-level magic is much more common, you do have a few places (admittedly very few) where you get magical street lights, and magic as technology exists. But since high-level magic - and high-level NPCs - is much rarer, the PCs can't just buy any kind of magic. Buy a +1 sword, yes. Buy a holy avenger, not so much. Plus the levels ensure the PCs are much more special than in a setting like Greyhawk or FR, where many people of their level are wandering around even in the level 15-20 range.

 

[Reynard]

The problem disappears if you use the "wide magic" paradigm that Eberron does. Low-level magic is much more common, you do have a few places (admittedly very few) where you get magical street lights, and magic as technology exists. But since high-level magic - and high-level NPCs - is much rarer, the PCs can't just buy any kind of magic. Buy a +1 sword, yes. Buy a holy avenger, not so much. Plus the levels ensure the PCs are much more special than in a setting like Greyhawk or FR, where many people of their level are wandering around even in the level 15-20 range.

But "wide magic" makes the "medieval" setting very difficult to swallow, and for some the medieval implied setting of D&D is an important component of the milieu. Taking "wide magic" into account starts to degrade the presence of everything from serfdom to castles to knights in armor. Again, it isn't about realism, it is about trying to maintain a certain feel and flavor and trying to impress upon the players that the world they operate in is not the world that all the normal people wake-work-eat-and sleep in.

 

[Valiant]

But "wide magic" makes the "medieval" setting very difficult to swallow, and for some the medieval implied setting of D&D is an important component of the milieu. Taking "wide magic" into account starts to degrade the presence of everything from serfdom to castles to knights in armor. Again, it isn't about realism, it is about trying to maintain a certain feel and flavor and trying to impress upon the players that the world they operate in is not the world that all the normal people wake-work-eat-and sleep in.

I would argue the setting is probably even more important then the rules in defining what 1E is. If you look at the PH and DMG, the vast majority of both books is spent describing the setting to the DM (very little is devoted to how the "to hit" tables work for instance, yet we get pages on valuation of gems,types of diseases,how to hire henchmen, etc.). AD&D is really all about the setting, because its an imaginary game. Once you settle on a system to determine who goes first and who hits who, and what damage is done, what else is there really. Its "playing make believe" with an impartial DM who supplies a shared setting. Get the rules wrong, no big deal. Get the setting wrong....disaster.

Wide scale use of magic driven cars, magic driven blimps, magic driven electricity....thats not what most people who play AD&D want (note I'm not speaking about 3E which may be open to such things). AD&Ders generally want classic fantasy where magic isn't part of most peoples everyday Medievilish lives.

 

[Raven Crowking]

In LOTR, magic is common enough to be made into children's toys. Granted, it's expensive, but, it is still children toys.

Correct. Some of the toys given out at Bilbo's party were magical, of genuine dwarf-make. OTOH, what those toys could do is never explained. Within the context of LotR, this is liable to be some pretty petty magic indeed.

I would call Narsil an artifact level weapon because it was used to banish a god. Thinking that it might be a bit better than a masterwork longsword.

Except, apart from the movie version, Narsil wasn't used to banish a god. Sauron was the servant of a god, Morgoth, at first. He was certainly a powerful being of the class of beings to which Gandalf belonged. But not a god. Moreover, in the novel, a shard of Narsil was used to cut the Ring from Sauron's hand. Loss of the Ring, perhaps, left Sauron without form (although still not banished).

It is quite clear in The Hobbit, BTW, that a bunch of goblins and wargs can kill Gandalf, so this isn't some kind of uber-feat.

Elrond casts what is effectively Raise Dead on Frodo. Magic so powerful that only he could do it and the only thing that could undo the ringwraith's dagger.

Frodo is emphatically not dead when he reaches Rivendell. The Nazgul's dagger wasn't killing Frodo, but transforming him into a wraith. What Elrond did wasn't even a complete cure.....more along the lines of a very effective slow poison. Gandalf believed that, in the end, Frodo would become like a clear glass, filled with light for those with eyes to see.

I'm sorry, but the idea that D&D has suddenly become more and more "magical" is just ignoring vast swaths of the game's history.

As is thinking that D&D was always, overall, as "magic as technology"-oriented as it is today.


RC

 

[shilsen]

But "wide magic" makes the "medieval" setting very difficult to swallow, and for some the medieval implied setting of D&D is an important component of the milieu.

True. It's probably easier for me because I always had huge issues with the implied medieval (though I'd say it's more akin to the European Renaissance) setting of D&D from the time I started playing (1999, very close to the end of 2e). With the existence of magic in the game world and the nonexistence of many things without which, I'd argue, the medieval/Renaissance setting just couldn't have taken its particular shape (the Roman Empire, the rise of Christianity, the Black Plague, etc.), it always seemed nonsensical to me that the implied setting resembled the medieval/Renaissance period(s) as much as it did. That's why Eberron has worked very well for me. Even if not perfect, it answers my taste for a setting which actually fits the existence of magic in it, which I personally need for a setting to work for me.

I should also add that the "wide magic" approach actually seems, to me, to make a pseudo-Renaissance setting much easier to justify than the level of magic found in the 2e books, let alone 3e. Once you've got a fair number of people capable of casting spells of 5th and higher level (not the case in Eberron, but definitely the case in 2e's and 3e's implied - and written - settings), society should be incredibly different from the medieval/Renaissance model.

Taking "wide magic" into account starts to degrade the presence of everything from serfdom to castles to knights in armor.

Absolutely. But as noted above, so too, I'd argue, does the default D&D magic model.

Again, it isn't about realism, it is about trying to maintain a certain feel and flavor and trying to impress upon the players that the world they operate in is not the world that all the normal people wake-work-eat-and sleep in.

Agreed, but with the caveats I mentioned above. YMMV, of course.

 

[Reynard]

I should also add that the "wide magic" approach actually seems, to me, to make a pseudo-Renaissance setting much easier to justify than the level of magic found in the 2e books, let alone 3e. Once you've got a fair number of people capable of casting spells of 5th and higher level (not the case in Eberron, but definitely the case in 2e's and 3e's implied - and written - settings), society should be incredibly different from the medieval/Renaissance model.

It is kind of interesting how 2E moved the default "timeline" forward to the Renaissance, isn't it? Note that there was no full plate in the 1E core books.

Absolutely. But as noted above, so too, I'd argue, does the default D&D magic model.

...

Agreed, but with the caveats I mentioned above. YMMV, of course.

Indeed. However, the thing about game books is they tend to tell you what's a-typical and important. So, it seems like there are huge numbers of high level wizards and magical weapons/items running around, but contextually those things are 1:1000, 1:10000 or even 1:1000000. The PCs and their adversaries operate in a world that is alien to the common peasant, merchant and even baron. These are people in the "know" and able to see the world for what it really is -- a place full of danger and mystery and beauty and horror. Also note that those +1 swords and the like are often considered the treasures of lost ages -- that is why they are in deep holes and broken ruins. There aren't many wizards pumping out magic items in the day and age of the PCs: these items are the labors of dwarven nations long since devoured by the things they woke deep in the earth, elven smiths that have since sailed to the West and arcane empires that have collapsed under the weight of their own decadence. PCs are the people uncovering these age old items and secrets and, perhaps, the ones who can bring this lost knowledge and artifice back to the world. This is especially true in the dark ages/medieval milieu of 1E because it is before the Renaissance or any kind of "enlightenment" -- the old empires have fallen, darkness and depair have descended and history has become myth and legend.

 

[Davelozzi]

These are people in the "know" and able to see the world for what it really is -- a place full of danger and mystery and beauty and horror. Also note that those +1 swords and the like are often considered the treasures of lost ages -- that is why they are in deep holes and broken ruins. There aren't many wizards pumping out magic items in the day and age of the PCs: these items are the labors of dwarven nations long since devoured by the things they woke deep in the earth, elven smiths that have since sailed to the West and arcane empires that have collapsed under the weight of their own decadence. PCs are the people uncovering these age old items and secrets and, perhaps, the ones who can bring this lost knowledge and artifice back to the world. This is especially true in the dark ages/medieval milieu of 1E because it is before the Renaissance or any kind of "enlightenment" -- the old empires have fallen, darkness and depair have descended and history has become myth and legend.

Very well said, Reynard. Great description.