P1 - King of the Trollhaunt Warrens (Spoilers)

[Infiniti2000]

I have finished my reading and picking apart of P1 - King of the Trollhaunt Warrens by Richard Baker and @Logan_Bonner . In short summary, this is an excellent adventure and I'm really looking forward to running. However, as I mentioned in another thread to @Psikus , @Rechan , and others, I like enhancing the modules I run. I did so with RttToEE and plan to continue the trend here.

With that in mind, I've generated three lists: proposed errata, role playing questions / requests, and other comments and rules questions. All of these will be posted immediately in a follow-up post. Additionally, I spent not an insignificant amount of time trying to acquire all relevant and useful pre-existing on-line comments and links on P1. To that end, I'm also attaching a Word file (easiest for me, sorry) summarizing all of it. I highly recommend any interesting persons read through it. I purposefully didn't correct grammar or spelling of the quoted material and all links are provided in the file.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Errata, Questions, Reqests, and Comments

Errata

[sblock]
Note: B#P# indicates book number and page number.

1. B2P32: Encounter W11 (Setup), replace “west” with “east” in 2 places
2. B2P15: Encounter W3, Ssark’s double attack is melee
3. B1P5: In section “Government,” should be “(see page 6)”; in section “3 Cloudwatch Inn,” should be “(see page 7)” in two places.
4. B1P2: First paragraph of Introduction, Moonstair is the site (not was).
5. B2P21: Encounter W6, add a note for “night time only” in Fire Pit
6. B2P23: Change hide armor to chainmail for Skalmad to match description and picture
7. B2P25: In section Pillars, change eastern to western.
8. B2P50: “The Next Adventure” on page 64 (not xx)
9. B2P53: Escarpment should be DC 21, and possibly 15ft high as in W11. If this “escarpment” is supposed to be the walls leading outside, the DC is still 21 as in Development.
10. B2P59: In section Portal, change to “…into the northern wall of the larger room to the south.”
11. B2P62: “In the northwest corner…”

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Roleplaying Requests / Questions

[sblock]

1. Why do people need to go to the Feywild? Can you come up with some reasons for people to make the rather dangerous and time-consuming trip (waiting months to go through the door)? This seems to be the likeliest question the players will ask and there’s no direction on why.
2. How, exactly, is the Moonstair traversed? This can’t be too dangerous, but it seems like it is. Is it covered in wooden planking? Do “mists” carry worthy travelers from one stone outcropping to the next?
3. Who are some of the temple ritual casters and whom do they worship?
4. What are some of Cham’s stories? It’s hard to roleplay him as talkative without some initial ideas for stories.
5. The coins in the forest ruin (Trozad) are from “the ancient Dragonborn empire.” What empire? Did the book mean Vardar, which was trollish?
6. Why is a prince an adventurer? Isn’t that dangerous? Surely there must be more to it than that, or perhaps Prince is an honorary title of a sort? Maybe the Prince needed to constantly prove himself, which could lend to some interesting relationship issues with the baron once the heroes go talk to him. Perhaps the heroes would then start blaming the baron for the Prince’s self-destructive behavior?
7. Who were the Prince’s other companions? Surely, these will come up in conversation with Bax, especially if the heroes try to help him out. Also, what happened to the bodies?
8. Whose diary excerpts are found at Bravak? (See #7.)
9. Can someone help brainstorm ideas on using (swapping) monsters from newer sources than the MM? This would certainly alleviate the “boredom” in fighting yet more trolls. Maybe some other monsters could simply be “reskinned” into more interesting trolls.
10. What stolen treasure can be found on the Mercenary Band (B1P10)?
11. Can someone convert/upgrade the skill challenge “Traversing the Trollhaunt” to other systems or at least the new DCs?
12. It takes 1 ½ days to reach the Great Warren, but the Will O’ Wisp attack is at twilight. This doesn’t seem to work well together. How long does it take to reach the Great Warren on success or failure of the skill challenge?
13. Can the heroes negotiate with the roper? How can the heroes determine that the roper is not friendly with Skalmad and that the troglodytes serving the roper are runaways? (See #16.)
14. What does it take to destroy the stone pillars in the Trollmaw? Can they be rebuilt? How do things change if the heroes have a boat?
15. How can the heroes find out about the sinkhole entrances in area 10 or 18 without first going through the warren?
16. Encounter W10 seems a little stretched. What could replace the troglodytes? Is it 5 or 4 troglodytes? If the encounter is left unchanged, what could alert the players to the politics here? It seems unrealistic to have these troglodytes in this encounter without giving the players a chance to understand why. A story is no good if you don’t tell it to anyone.
17. Can someone work out a skill challenge for the PCs talking their way into the Trollmaw?
18. Kasszt doesn’t trust the nothic stalkers (perhaps because he can’t talk to them). Can the heroes exploit this?
19. What is Ssark’s relationship with Skalmad? Also, Ssark only speaks Draconic and therefore can’t talk to him. Recommend giving Ssark Giant (not Common) or pointing out later on that Dethos did all the translating between Ssark and Skalmad. I would guess that therefore everyone in the Great Warren knows about Dethos.
20. How does Skalmad talk to the nothics? Does anyone else speak Deep Speech? How about the grell (W8)? Recommend giving Skalmad Deep Speech. It says that Dethos is his interpreter, but if Skalmad can’t talk to the nothics, that doesn’t make sense that they would be so loyal.
21. Can someone draft example dialog of Norgg and the skulls? How about his “angry words?” Some prewritten stuff to get creative juices flowing could really bring this role-playing encounter alive.
22. Is there any other roleplaying advice for talking to Norgg or even his dire bear?
23. Is there a suitable alternative monster for the oni mage in Encounter One?
24. Did the trolls and/or troglodytes write any warnings on the south side of the door into Gloomfang’s chamber?
25. How can I properly foreshadow the return of Vard, if not the second coming of Skalmad? Can this be done through discussions with Rualiss about the nature of the Stone Cauldron?
26. How can the heroes expect to get back to town in time for Skalmad’s raid? 1 ½ days is a long time.
27. How can the players figure out how to destroy the Stone Cauldron on their own? Maybe Rualiss mentions that if he knew the “ancient race?”
28. In W7 Thurk wouldn’t speak in giant because the grimlocks don’t speak giant. Both speak common, but that requires changes to the read text.
29. What is the “one other” language spoken by the flameskulls in W4? Recommend giant.
30. What does the grell in W8 train the grimlocks to do? How? What does this mean to the PCs? For example, if the grell is killed do all the grimlocks leave the Great Warren? This “training” must be made interesting and somehow available to the PCs or else the encounter is just a random collection of monsters.
31. Can the PCs conduct a skill challenge during combat in W9 to convince the galeb duhr to abandon his bargain? Would he ever work with the heroes?
32. If captured, what can the galeb duhr tell the heroes?
33. Location 21 (W11) can hold the PCs as prisoners as noted in Development. But, what does Skalmad do with PC prisoners? Nothing else is mentioned of this. What monsters here try to take them prisoner? Even if summoned at the Trollmaw, Skalmad supposedly attacks immediately.
34. If Skalmad doesn’t escape in the throne room, then the PCs cannot get he Insight check for the Skill Challenge to active the throne. Can someone come up with another insight?
35. Can someone write up the letter from Skalmad to the Dark Initiate? Better it, why didn’t Dethos (Skalmad’s scribe) write it?
36. In C3 it seems like at least one quickling will escape. What does he do? Clearly, the heroes are powerful and thus additional replacement quicklings (later on) wouldn’t be so keen on fighting.
37. C2 is likely the first encounter for the heroes (maybe the players) with a Fomorian. What can be done to make this at least start out better than a “mindless combat?” What does the Fomorian want from the PCs, however unreasonable? Why would it just attack? Is this a random monster or can it be tied to the plot somehow, prior to or during combat, to make it interesting?
38. If the Stone Cauldron is not destroyed by the Eye, then how many times does Vard reform? How can the PCs ever use the ritual of Alleshandros if Vard keeps returning? Does Vard need the eye in order to reform? That would mean that as soon as he returns the first time (one round later), he immediately gets the eye and flees.
39. Please describe in detail how the relics are destroyed when the Eye is dropped into the Cauldron. This is too important an event for “Okay, the Eye and the Cauldron are destroyed.”

[/sblock]

Comments and Rules Questions

[sblock]

1. Perhaps Bax’s confidence can be restored with a skill challenge. However, this skill challenge need not occur in a single evening, but perhaps over a week or so.
2. The following are the exits/entrances to the Great Warren: Trollmaw, thrall pit sinkhole (10), execution chamber sinkhole (18), throne, 4 streams (northwest stream is used by Gloomfang)
3. With an Acrobatics DC 10, the troglodytes fall off the log bridge 15% of the time and the trolls 5%. Recommend at a minimum to include a general statement that inhabitants of the GW get a +2 proficiency bonus on these checks.
4. Nothic stalker: should Dazing Gaze be a basic attack? Daze at-will is very strong (and annoying).
5. Does a troglodyte’s aura stack with others? W2 suggests they spread out to maximize effect.
6. In W2 and W6, the nothics need Athletics to get to the top of the escarpment.
7. In W5 if it comes to battle, 30hp is very low for Gloomfang to flee (5%), recommend 56hp before fleeing.
8. Lob Boulder should be on the troll stat block in W6.
9. How do the grimlocks “scramble down” the wall in R4? Without Athletics they stand a good chance to get killed.
10. If the PCs had dealt fairly with Gloomfang previously, have him help the PCs defeat the Trollmaw reinforcements when they return to the Great Warren after the raid. For a price he might even help in W6 (vs. reinforcements), albeit at range only and likely to leave if injured.
11. Skalmad is not afraid to die, because he can’t. In the first combat play him as reckless as possible, taking every possible attacking advantage he can.
12. The text in C2 identifies the dragon oil as green, but the picture shows it as brown.
13. Is the opening to the underground entrance in Area 14 of the fortress automatically spotted?

[/sblock]

For convenience, all of these are also attached in a Word file.

 

[Rune]

You may also want to update the monsters to the MM3 math. When I played this module, our party cleaved through it with no serious challenge, start to finish.

 

[Infiniti2000]

You may also want to update the monsters to the MM3 math. When I played this module, our party cleaved through it with no serious challenge, start to finish.

Psikus has done most, if not all, of that. I plan to help, but first wanted to get this out there so that others can help answer all the questions I had. Hopefully, people will be interested enough to participate.

 

[Balesir]

Hi,

I'm part way through running KotTW myself; here are a few observations so far:

- "Upgrading" the monsters to MM3 statndards definitely is worthwhile. This has made all the fights pretty entertaining, to this point.

- The search around the Trollhaunt is oddly presented; finding the warren needs the skill challenge, but there are other places marked on the map of the trollhaunt. It's not very clear how this was intended to be handled. The way I chose - which worked pretty well, was this:

[sblock]Starting with the "find the warren" skill challenge, I added some flesh to it. Like all SCs that are basically needed to progress the adventure, this one as it stands has no obvious "point" - the party have to find the warren, after all, or you are short one adventure! So...

Make each "success" in the challenge an "encounter" with one of the points noted on the map. This gives opportunities for searching etc. to find bonus treasures, background information and so forth. It's also worth adding in some "clues" (the "successes") to the whereabouts of the warren. Each failure, on the other hand, can be one of the "in the trollhaunt" encounters, maybe watered down a bit, that gives no XP separate from the SC experience (which I was happy to give, succeed or fail). when the SC ends, success or failure, start the lakeside encounter; success might give surprise to the party, failure may give surprise against them. If the party fails before it gets all the "bonus location" encounters, they lost the opportunities in them plus any resources they spend on the "failure" encounters - this gives some "point" to the SC. You might even add success bonuses by allowing the party to find one or other "concealed" entrance, rather than just the "front door".[/sblock]- Finally, be aware of the scope for Rituals to help the PCs. This level is where they start to look reasonably priced, and my players have used several that helped:

[sblock]Teleportal to get back to town before the troll army; Travellers' Camoflage to aid movement and searching in the trollhaunt; Sending to communicate with the town - I'm sure there are others.[/sblock]

 

[Will Doyle]

To the OP: thanks for posting such a treasure trove. There's a load here I'll be integrating into my own games, so nice catch.

You may be interested in stopping by my blog: Beholder Pie I took Mike Shea's advice and turned the battle of Moonstair into our own "Helm's Deep" - which we played out using my own custom wargaming ruleset (heavily based on "Piquet").

If you're interested, you can find my rules at the blog.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Thanks, Will. I've added a couple more links to the original Word document, including the post from [MENTION=66049]Psikus[/MENTION] I referenced above. How in the world I forgot that I have no idea, because it was one of the principle reasons for me running this adventure. I also updated the formatting on the second post, including some typos in the Word document.

It's my hope that people will be encouraged to answer a question or two (in this thread perhaps). Obviously not all of these questions need answering, nor do the proposed errata need confirmation, but I'm hoping that we get some excellent, creative responses that will help to really liven up people's games. It truly helped for RttToEE. I have several quick answers ready to go and would love some from others. Don't worry about double answers as no one plays the game the same way so what's good for some may not be good for others. Some like things humorous, others like things grim n' gritty, etc. I'm not sure how to capture all of it; I guess I'll copy them into the Word document and update it above every so often.

 

[Infiniti2000]

1. Why do people need to go to the Feywild? Can you come up with some reasons for people to make the rather dangerous and time-consuming trip (waiting months to go through the door)? This seems to be the likeliest question the players will ask and there’s no direction on why.

Mortals visit the feywild to tap into arcane powers (e.g., research, residuum, reagents), negotiate secret knowledge from the eladrin, seek revenge on evil fey, plunder magical artifacts, or thrill-seekers looking for extreme environments (e.g., rock climbing). See my answer question #10 regarding the mercenary band, which might provide a nice tie-in.

Inspiration for this answer taken from excerpts posted by Wizards of the Coast.

 

[Infiniti2000]

10. What stolen treasure can be found on the Mercenary Band (B1P10)?

The mercenary band stole a family heirloom magical item from some petitioners seeking to travel through the Moondoor. This item is fey in origin and cannot be identified in the mortal realm. The mercenary band cannot use the item, nor identify it either, and therefore are very frustrated about their predicament. Stealth adventurers may catch wind of their grumbling.

 

[Rechan]

How are you going to tie Revenge of the Giants in with this module if at all possible?

Mortals visit the feywild to tap into arcane powers (e.g., research, residuum, reagents), negotiate secret knowledge from the eladrin, seek revenge on evil fey, plunder magical artifacts, or thrill-seekers looking for extreme environments (e.g., rock climbing).

There are other things they could do.

Seek out beautiful fey brides or deals with the fey. Find rare and exotic plants/herbs/etc. Visit eladrin cities or see great sights of untouched beauty. It may be easier to commune with primal spirits in the feywild (IMC, spirits rest in the feywild, as manifesting in the material plane takes Power; spirits can commune/see/influence the material plane from the Feywild's side). Moonstair could be close to an Eladrin city, thus establishing trade would be great - and Moonstair gets to both travelers going in and travelers coming out.

The coins in the forest ruin (Trozad) are from “the ancient Dragonborn empire.” What empire?

I believe they mean Arkhosia. It's a fallen empire that was destroyed during the war with Bael Turoth, the Tiefling empire. This stuff is in the various racial entries in the PHBs, in Dragon, etc etc.

Why is a prince an adventurer? Isn’t that dangerous?

I asked why a King would go on adventuring some time ago, and the responses varied from "Hey, kings went on hunts often" to "perhaps it's tradition/requirement".

Perhaps he has no chance of the throne (the youngest of several heirs) and has nothing better to do. Perhaps to be king he must prove his prowess as a strong leader/man at arms but his country is not in open war. Perhaps he cannot stand courtly life/the lap of luxury and seeks the road.

Who were the Prince’s other companions? Surely, these will come up in conversation with Bax, especially if the heroes try to help him out. Also, what happened to the bodies?

Pretty sure trolls eat people. So the bodies should be, well, gone. If not by the trolls than the other beasts in the warren.

Can someone help brainstorm ideas on using (swapping) monsters from newer sources than the MM? This would certainly alleviate the “boredom” in fighting yet more trolls. Maybe some other monsters could simply be “reskinned” into more interesting trolls.

So as far as existing troll variants:
This dragon article has some nasty troll options - the Troll Witch is a certain keeper. Dungeon 160 has some interesting trolls for the Moonstair siege. Dungeon 161 has a spitting troll and two headed troll. Dungeon 169, has a Cave Troll mangler and troll Bloodchanter. Not sure what it does. There's a cave troll in 157, but all it does is pick someone up and smash them against another enemy (which is a great Giant power btw).