Level Up (A5E) Pact of the Blade past level 5

[Sepulchre]

This issue is goes back to the 5E D&D Player's Handbook. Thirsting Blade in A5E is the same as in the 5E D&D PHB. Multi-classing rules on page 164 of the PHB specifically state that Thirsting Blade and Extra Attack do not stack.

But yes, having an A5E designer chime in might be helpful, regarding whether Thirsting Blade should count as Extra Attack or not, specifically for two-weapon fighting two off-hand attacks, once you get Extra Attack. I.e., was that a design oversight or intentional, and would it be unbalanced to allow it.

All level 5 warlocks count as having extra attack by virtue of the extra blast feature.

They can* make two attacks with two-weapon fighting as long as they make at least one qualifying melee weapon attack with the attack action.

 

[Steampunkette]

So... here's the rub:

You should probably not be making Thirsting Blade attacks as a Pact of the Blade Warlock unless you're inside an antimagic field.

You should be making Eldritch Scythe attacks using your pact weapon to apply magic bonuses to your force-damage dealing attacks.

Get yourself a Flame Tongue Weapon and your Eldritch Scythe deals 1d8+Cha Force (Agonizing) +2d6 Fire on each hit. And then deals half damage to a secondary target. Twice at level 5, 3 times at 11, 4 times at 17.

Add on Repelling Blast and you can batter people around the battlefield like Sauron.

Feel free to get Versatile Blast to snag the Ray or Disturbance for a ranged option... but yeah: Tear them up with magic force scythe. It's also hilarious to use, like, a -dagger- to do it. Because it's easily held on your person, rarely viewed as any kind of threat, and even if it deals 1d4 piercing you smack for 1d8 Force.

Win/Win.

 

[lichmaster]

All level 5 warlocks count as having extra attack by virtue of the extra blast feature.

They can* make two attacks with two-weapon fighting as long as they make at least one qualifying melee weapon attack with the attack action.

The initial point was about Thirsting Blade and whether it scaled well at higher levels.
Extra blast counts as having extra attack for the purpose of qualifying to feats, etc, but it specifies that it only allows you to make multiple blast attacks.
Thirsting blade specifies that you can attack twice, instead of once, with the pact weapon as a melee attack.
So it looks like the Warlock cannot make more than 2 melee attacks with the attack action, and eventually other 2 for the off hand bonus attack (thanks to the fact that it counts as having extra attack due to extra blast).
It seems totally reasonable to me, as it's still mostly a magic class with eventually some gish potential.
As Steampunkette said above, a melee lock would be better off using Eldritch Scythe more than the pact weapon directly, unless that weapon has some very good properties that do not carry over to the scythe (eg vorpal, bleeding effects, impose conditions and the like)

 

[Sepulchre]

Totally agree—eldritch scythe is the way to go, especially after Warlock 11. I was just responding to the question about whether warlocks can make two off-hand attacks, and the answer is yes.

With respect to the original post and Dread Knight, it’s just not really meant to be a ranged build, frankly. You might consider whether your DM would let you switch to Eldritch Gunslinger, which is a cool subclass with more support for your ranged style.

 

[Anonymous3]

Damn, A5e Warlocks are the king of swing.

So... here's the rub:

You should probably not be making Thirsting Blade attacks as a Pact of the Blade Warlock unless you're inside an antimagic field.

You should be making Eldritch Scythe attacks using your pact weapon to apply magic bonuses to your force-damage dealing attacks.

View attachment 380301

Get yourself a Flame Tongue Weapon and your Eldritch Scythe deals 1d8+Cha Force (Agonizing) +2d6 Fire on each hit. And then deals half damage to a secondary target. Twice at level 5, 3 times at 11, 4 times at 17.

Add on Repelling Blast and you can batter people around the battlefield like Sauron.

Feel free to get Versatile Blast to snag the Ray or Disturbance for a ranged option... but yeah: Tear them up with magic force scythe. It's also hilarious to use, like, a -dagger- to do it. Because it's easily held on your person, rarely viewed as any kind of threat, and even if it deals 1d4 piercing you smack for 1d8 Force.

Win/Win.

I am little confused with this and @lichmaster 's comment.
Eldritch Blast requires: 1) using Ray, Scythe or Whip versions; 2) part of your action; 3) not using weapon attacks. If these conditions are met then you may attack twice, three times and four times as you level your warlock.

To me this means you cannot use Scythe to make four attacks - since it requires weapon attacks. At most you can make two with Thirsting Blade.
If you wanted to achieve four attacks then you could use the Two Weapon Fighting feature and dual wield to weapons. However, my reading is that the off-hand weapons not be the with Eldritch Scythe but just the off-hand weapons you were wielding.

Is this correct?

 

[Steampunkette]

Damn, A5e Warlocks are the king of swing.

I am little confused with this and @lichmaster 's comment.
Eldritch Blast requires: 1) using Ray, Scythe or Whip versions; 2) part of your action; 3) not using weapon attacks. If these conditions are met then you may attack twice, three times and four times as you level your warlock.

To me this means you cannot use Scythe to make four attacks - since it requires weapon attacks. At most you can make two with Thirsting Blade.
If you wanted to achieve four attacks then you could use the Two Weapon Fighting feature and dual wield to weapons. However, my reading is that the off-hand weapons not be the with Eldritch Scythe but just the off-hand weapons you were wielding.

Is this correct?

So! Eldritch Scythe is an attack replacement. You take the attack action and instead of swinging your sword you can make a melee spell attack.

Pact of the Blade just lets you summon a weapon so you can take that swing and replace it with an Eldritch Scythe attack during your Attack Action. (It also makes it possible to use a magic weapon to do your Eldritch Scythe for bonuses)

Extra Blast then kicks in at 5th level, allowing you to make 2 Eldritch Scythe attacks if you forgo your weapon attacks. Then 3 at 11th level, and 4 at 17th level.

So long as you are 11th level or higher you can make 3 Eldritch Scythe attacks on your turn as part of the attack action, rather than the "Cast a Spell" action. Essentially you sacrifice your one melee weapon attack for 3 melee spell attacks. If you take Thirsting Blade and get two weapon attacks on your turn... You sacrifice two melee weapon attacks for 3 melee spell attacks.

It's worded a little funky, but that's how it works.

It also means that whether you're 5th level or not you -can- choose to combine Eldritch Scythe with Thirsting Blade by replacing only one of your attacks with only one Eldritch Scythe attack, then swing your sword/axe/whatever with your second attack. Doing -that- would allow you to engage in two-weapon fighting since you made a weapon attack with the attack action.

But since you don't have Extra Attack it's just one off-hand attack. Still. 3 attacks at 5th level is not the worst thing, and if you're fighting a solo enemy who isn't damage resistant you don't actually -need- the Force damage to overcome resistances. Of course, you need a d8 weapon in your main hand to avoid losing any damage.

Still. It's a thing. Eldritch Scythe is pretty much the goal for Melee Warlocks.

 

[lichmaster]

It's worded a little funky, but that's how it works.

To me it's quite clear:

• you have 1 melee attack
• thirsting blade allows you to make 2 melee attacks with the pact weapon on your attack action
• you can swap 1 melee attack for a scythe attack
• once you have Extra Blast you can use scythe more than once per turn, but only if you didn't make melee attacks, otherwise you fall back to the previous point

But since you don't have Extra Attack it's just one off-hand attack.

Here is where I disagree but input from actual designers would be useful: Extra Blast counts as having Extra attacks when qualifying for feats, spells etc. That etc could include also making more than one off-hand attack, but this hasn't been clarified yet

Still. It's a thing. Eldritch Scythe is pretty much the goal for Melee Warlocks.

I agree, again unless the weapon has some interesting property that does not carry over the Scythe, like a Vorpal's sword decapitation effect, a Holy Avenger's antimagic aura, etc. In that case you might want to just attack with the actual weapon instead of using the Scythe

 

[Verall]

Totally agree—eldritch scythe is the way to go, especially after Warlock 11. I was just responding to the question about whether warlocks can make two off-hand attacks, and the answer is yes.

With respect to the original post and Dread Knight, it’s just not really meant to be a ranged build, frankly. You might consider whether your DM would let you switch to Eldritch Gunslinger, which is a cool subclass with more support for your ranged style.

I’m pretty happy with the DreadKnight so far, it’s a better fit for me than the eldritch gunslinger.
The ranged smites have been working quite well and I’m getting a lot of use out of my dread steed.
My first level was in fighter and I picked up fighting style archery as well as biting zephyr tradition.
Retraining from smites to combat traditions now will open up 3rd degree manuevers for me which I’m pretty happy with.
DreadKnight also forces you into wisdom for the casting stat which is perfect for me as I’m an elf. I can see the appeal for eldritch gunslinger but it’s not for me, or not for this character anyway.

 

[Steampunkette]

Here is where I disagree but input from actual designers would be useful: Extra Blast counts as having Extra attacks when qualifying for feats, spells etc. That etc could include also making more than one off-hand attack, but this hasn't been clarified yet

No... no. You're right.

It's two off-hand attacks after Warlock 5. I was wrong. My apologies!

So four attacks. One Eldritch Scythe, one Pact Weapon, two Off Hand.

I’m pretty happy with the DreadKnight so far, it’s a better fit for me than the eldritch gunslinger.
The ranged smites have been working quite well and I’m getting a lot of use out of my dread steed.
My first level was in fighter and I picked up fighting style archery as well as biting zephyr tradition.
Retraining from smites to combat traditions now will open up 3rd degree manuevers for me which I’m pretty happy with.
DreadKnight also forces you into wisdom for the casting stat which is perfect for me as I’m an elf. I can see the appeal for eldritch gunslinger but it’s not for me, or not for this character anyway.

For what it's worth: I really like the Dread Knight, too.

Sorry about the Eldritch Gunslinger not lining up for you! My revised version of it will be in Martial Artistry, soonish, though. So you might enjoy that one better. (Especially with the firearms rebalance/redesign)

 

[Verall]

No... no. You're right.

It's two off-hand attacks after Warlock 5. I was wrong. My apologies!

So four attacks. One Eldritch Scythe, one Pact Weapon, two Off Hand.

For what it's worth: I really like the Dread Knight, too.

Sorry about the Eldritch Gunslinger not lining up for you! My revised version of it will be in Martial Artistry, soonish, though. So you might enjoy that one better. (Especially with the firearms rebalance/redesign)

I eagerly await!

If I had been building this character from scratch I probably would have picked eldritch gunslinger, I love hellboy!
However we had been playing pf2e and switched over, i was a gunslinger sniper and wanted to keep using my rifle so that knocked eldritch gunslinger out of contention.