Painful splattering aka Really Big Stuff Hurts

[Majere]

If the cleric is your companion, then I will say that it has never been my experience that I can simply claim several of the cleric's spells for the day. If those buffs are going to be cast (and that's the cleric's decision) they'll most likely be cast on the cleric.

Entirely dependant on your group. In our group our cleric would never waste spells buffing himself, in any meaningful combat he will be too busy keeping people alive or casting other important spells to wast time trying to hit things.

Majere

 

[Majere]

Majere, you're a funny guy. I've been messing around with some revised and 3.5 converted character builds, and did some rough (no criticals) damage per round comparisons. The lowest AC I bothered with for level 20 guys was 35.

Against AC 35, the damage from fully equiped characters piles up so fast that the only way for those critters (or wizards) to live is to have significant other defenses (miss chance, high DR, etc) or to avoid recieving full attacks like the plague. Looking at monsters with CR around 20, I generally see at least 35, usually with magic effects to boost that AC. Also, since most of the monsters at that level are intelligent, we can probably assume that some of that standard items treasure might be going to some defense. Potions are especially good for NPCs and monsters. Of course, the DM can also treat low AC enemies as one shot attackers.

Ok this is just wrong
Given that you always hit on a 20, when an enemey ac goes through the roof the TWF will always have a better chance of hitting.
Equally if you include enemy misschances then the numbers skew more in favour of the TWF style.

DR is significant if you dont have a weapon of the right material type, but since 3.5 most people walk about with 2/3 different weapons to cover DR eventualities.

Majere

 

[Majere]

For the feats the TWF guy spends just becoming proficient in his style, the 2HF can increase his combat effectiveness even more.

Actually he cant
I included all the relevant feats in both characters. Unless I missed something, once you have WS,WF,GWS,GWF,Improved critical, PA you can not specialize any further in a weapon. There are no more additional feats to invest in to increase your damage output.

Majere
For the record, I dont use splat books, if a splatbook feat breaks the above rule, the feat is broken IMHO.

 

[Victim]

Actually he cant
I included all the relevant feats in both characters. Unless I missed something, once you have WS,WF,GWS,GWF,Improved critical, PA you can not specialize any further in a weapon. There are no more additional feats to invest in to increase your damage output.

Majere
For the record, I dont use splat books, if a splatbook feat breaks the above rule, the feat is broken IMHO.

If there are no more relavent feats, then why is the 2 hander continueing to take fighter levels? Fighter 12 / Barbarian 8 gets him all the mentioned feats, rage 2/day for +2 attack, +3 damage, plus other benefits, DR 1/-, uncanny dodge and more skills. Or, to avoid cheesy multiclassing, compare the 2 weapon guy as a fighter since he needs lots of feats to a 2 hander barbarian.

When AC increases, the single weapon style benefits from an extra +2 to hit effectively. Against many ACs, a modest bonus to hit produces significant gains in damage.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Actually he cant
I included all the relevant feats in both characters. Unless I missed something, once you have WS,WF,GWS,GWF,Improved critical, PA you can not specialize any further in a weapon. There are no more additional feats to invest in to increase your damage output.

Note that I didn't write "damage output." I wrote "combat effectiveness." That can be anything from Mounted Combat to provide greater mobility in battle, to Improved Initiative to control the flow of battle, to Iron Will to keep from being dominated as often. These are all core feats, and all feats that increase the combat effectiveness of a fighter. On paper, they may not add to a 2HF's damage potential. But in play they certainly make a large difference in damage actually dealt.

Entirely dependant on your group. In our group our cleric would never waste spells buffing himself, in any meaningful combat he will be too busy keeping people alive or casting other important spells to wast time trying to hit things.

Fair enough. I'm willing to concede that for your group, your example's TWF has only 38,000gp more than the 2HF (+6 gloves, and one extra +1 weapon.) I hope you can see, though, that for many groups this simply isn't the case. Some groups have clerics who aren't focused on buffing the rest of the party. Some groups don't even have a cleric at all.

Given that you always hit on a 20, when an enemey ac goes through the roof the TWF will always have a better chance of hitting.

I am no mathematician, but it seems to me that the TWF would hit twice as often for half the damage, so the two styles' damage would average out in the case of extreme ACs that require a natural 20. At least, assuming we ignore the gear deficit in your example.

 

[Majere]

On a completely aside comment.
I really feel sorry for people who play in games where the cleric is what I would describe as "selfish". Namely they buff/heal look after themselves first and everyone else second, Im fortunate to have only ever played with 2 such clerics and I didnt enjoy either experience. If you ever get the chance to play in a group with a "unselfish" cleric, it makes such a difference to the effectiveness of the party

On a relevant comment
TWF does more damag that THF, but not alot more.
This probably makes THF overpowered
The main issue is the 2for1 power attack, remove that and there is a advantage that might actually be worth 3 feats

Majere

 

[Plane Sailing]

Given that you always hit on a 20, when an enemey ac goes through the roof the TWF will always have a better chance of hitting.

BUT

the 2H fighter only needs to roll a 20 once to get the maximum possible damage and double effectiveness on his power attack too! The TWF would need to roll 20 twice (1 in 400 chance) and still only gets 1x power attack unless he is using two medium weapons.

PLUS we are back into the spring attack scenario - if it is a big foe that hits on a 20 and you will get minced if you go toe-to-toe the 2HW can spring in, do a max power attack and spring out. The TWF can attempt toe to toe and get minced or spring attack and take a single attack with a medium weapon and 1-1 power attack.

So it is not true that TWF will *always* have a better chance of hitting if you need a 20 to hit - only if you are prepared to go toe-to-toe. And whether you do or not you are unlikely to match the 2H user in any case under the 3.5 PA rules.

Cheers

 

[Majere]

BUT

the 2H fighter only needs to roll a 20 once to get the maximum possible damage and double effectiveness on his power attack too! The TWF would need to roll 20 twice (1 in 400 chance) and still only gets 1x power attack unless he is using two medium weapons.

PLUS we are back into the spring attack scenario - if it is a big foe that hits on a 20 and you will get minced if you go toe-to-toe the 2HW can spring in, do a max power attack and spring out. The TWF can attempt toe to toe and get minced or spring attack and take a single attack with a medium weapon and 1-1 power attack.

So it is not true that TWF will *always* have a better chance of hitting if you need a 20 to hit - only if you are prepared to go toe-to-toe. And whether you do or not you are unlikely to match the 2H user in any case under the 3.5 PA rules.

Cheers

To refer you to my previous posts
The more your optimin PA the bigger the advantage of TWF.
Raw numbers are posted on page2 of this thread.
If you only hit on a 20 then you are at the maximum limit of optimin PA, thus TWF will win out. And if you only hit on a 20, TWF will always win out.

To back this up with numbers based on the posts from above:
Needing 20 to hit:
THF: 22.26
TWF: 23.52

Secondly (and for the.. second time)
If you are denied your full attack you can wield your double weapon TWO HANDED. Now the only difference is in damage dice (2d6 vs d8, or 3.5).

Majere

 

[Lord Pendragon]

On a completely aside comment.
I really feel sorry for people who play in games where the cleric is what I would describe as "selfish". Namely they buff/heal look after themselves first and everyone else second, Im fortunate to have only ever played with 2 such clerics and I didnt enjoy either experience. If you ever get the chance to play in a group with a "unselfish" cleric, it makes such a difference to the effectiveness of the party

While I agree that it can make a difference to the effectiveness of the party, I don't think of a cleric who self-buffs as "selfish." It's simply another take on the cleric, which becomes more of a melee fighter than a healer. I don't use my paladin's abilities on everyone but myself. The wizard doesn't use his abilities on everyone but himself. The druid doesn't use her abilities on everyone but herself. Why should the cleric?

If someone's dying, I expect the cleric to heal them. If someone's dead, I expect the cleric to raise them. But I don't expect the cleric to use all of his abilities to buff others, and not do anything himself, (though I might like that! )