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D&D 4E Paizo and 4e - Vive le Revolution!

catsclaw227 said:
What would be the drop-dead date for you to get a prerelease SRD (and accompanying OGL with some assumptions that there might be minor changes), so that you can have a Freeport 4e product at Origins or Gencon?

It's hard to say because there's a part of the process I can't assess until I see the rules. To do quality product, I and my team need to absorb the new rules and begin to master them. I don't want to put out any half-ass 4E stuff, you know? How long that takes depends on how different the rules are from previous editions. Right now they are looking pretty different, which means we'll want a least a couple of months to chew them over, playtest, and see how the work.

The other factor in GR's case is our pre-existing plans. We are having a George RR Martin summer in '08 with the release of the A Song of Ice and Fire RPG (not d20, fyi) and the Wild Cards setting for M&M. Those are big projects with a lot of resources behind them and they will impact what we can do on short notice with 4E.
 

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Orcus said:
So, in my view, that drop dead date may have come and gone. I told WotC I felt the "I really need it now" date was September 30. Obviously, we didnt get it then. I think the new "I need it now" date is next Monday, Oct. 8. I'm not sure that is a drop dead date. But given that the draft rules are due in by Mearls to WotC today, I think next monday is a good day for me to say i need it right away.

I will tell you, when Sept 30 came and went I actively put together a small team to start planning on 3.75. I am working on that now, tenatively, as a backstop measure. It isnt full blows development. I know what I want to change and improve in my version of 3e. It wouldnt be hard to do. The hard part is art.

Thanks for the response. It sheds some light on the kind of lead time a publisher needs to get a (quality) book to print and into the hands of the fans.

If you were to publish the PDFs in advance like Green Ronin does with it's True20 books, that might get you in the door and selling 4e material in advance of the print books, possibly getting some errata into the print book. (Though looking at the lead times you described, this "added bonus" may be time prohibitive.

Let's home that WOTC can get some of the more qualified publishers a working draft in the next 1-2 weeks. Maybe you guys could squeeeeeeeeeeeze some time out of the production schedule. :)

Either way, I will absolutely continue to invest in Necromancer products if they do 4e.
 

Would it severely hurt the d20 Publishers if they had to wait til GenCon for their stuff?

It's apparent that WotC can't get them their material because, as it looks like, WotC hasn't ironed out the system. Clearly when they've got their first drafts ready for printing, they can help out the 3rd party guys (assuming they're gunna).
 

Pramas said:
The other factor in GR's case is our pre-existing plans. We are having a George RR Martin summer in '08 with the release of the A Song of Ice and Fire RPG (not d20, fyi) and the Wild Cards setting for M&M. Those are big projects with a lot of resources behind them and they will impact what we can do on short notice with 4E.
Speaking as just a single customer, if you guys could put out the 4E D20 Freeport Guide to accompany the (awesome!) Pirate's Guide to Freeport, I'd be happy. Obviously, a 4E Bleeding Edge adventure wouldn't be unwelcome, but getting to work on that now obviously has some challenges.
 

Rechan said:
Would it severely hurt the d20 Publishers if they had to wait til GenCon for their stuff?

Considering that Gencon is the premier event where all of the publisher hawk their wares, yeah. If I'm supposed to be releasing all of the cool new things at Gencon, that turns out being another 3.5 product (or a 3.75 product if they go that route) instead of something that supports Gencon's biggest release. I would hate to be one of the big publishers now and have that decision hanging over me...
 

Pramas said:
D20 publishers have discussed this sort of thing for years. When we were debating what to do for Freeport, one idea was do a full on Freeport RPG that made the D&D rules more to our liking. I've also had conversations with several other companies about doing a joint project. For various reasons none of these ideas were implemented. (You can check out the Pirate's Guide to Freeport to see what we did do with the City of Adventure.)
Wow, really? Not to hijack the thread or anything, but what kind of changes did you have in mind?
 

Arkhandus said:
Dude!!!!!!! Superman as Galactus' herald, wielding the Power Cosmic?!?!!! You just blew my mind! :D :p :cool:


.....and then there was much weeping.....

Actually, it DID happen. There was a 1 issue DC/Marvel crossover where Superman became the herald of Galactus.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled thread :)
 

Thanks to Clark, Erik, Jeff and Chris for the insight into how things work!

And thank you for being good stewards of the game.
 

Any theoretical 3.75 edition doesn't have to compete with 4th ed forever. Even if every 3.5 player converts to 4th ed, they may not do so immediately upon launch. From what what I sense, lots of folks are "less than enthused" by what they smell from the 4th ed kitchen. If 10-15% of the current fanbase sticks with 3.5 ed, AND 10-15% wait around a year to test the 4th ed waters, that is certainly enough people to make a 3.75 ed viable in the short term. And frankly, that's the situation WotC has apparantly put the 3rd party guys in. They cannot get 4th ed product out in time for next year's Gen Con, so they have to go with what can keep them afloat until Gen Con 2009.

For myself, Paizo and Necromancer are solid gold. They "get it". Green Ronin and Goodman Games do too. If all four of these team up and support a fantasy-themed roleplaying game, regardless of if it's 4th ed, 3.5 ed, 3.75 ed or some completely new beast, I know that for my tastes, it will be rock solid. I'll throw all my disposible money at that product, almost sight unseen, over everything I've read about 4th ed.

The GoodNecroPaiz Ronin doesn't have to slay the WotC beast, just stand up on it's own, and it can be successful. And I'll help.

(Now to hear the negative cries from the "I welcome our new 4th ed masters" set. *sigh*)
 

Orc: I certainly hope you are right. But I have a hard time understanding the marketing strategy that they are using or the overall secrecy if they intend to be fully open with the third party vendors ahead of launch. I know you can't answer any of these questions, but are they just screwing up? (Everyone does.) Are they just overworked? Is 4e being rushed to market because of flagging 3.5 sales? Why the decision to leak only enough information to create wild speculation, fear of the unknown, and unrealistic expectations? It doesn't make sense.

I can tell you, if you want to know. At least my view anyway. They are rushing to get the game out and it isnt all the way done yet. They have to tease it and promote it so they are doing it. Its like a movie, they release the trailer before the final cut is done. Same thing here. There isnt secrecy. There just, in my guess, isnt a solid enough chunck of game to get out to us publishers yet. That is a bit scary.

Because if they PHB draft is due to WotC today, then what the heck are they playtesting--since playtesting just started? You absolutely cannot tell me that there is any time in the production process of this product to make any significant changes to the core rules as a result of playtesting at this point--playtesters would have to play for a month or two, then groups would have to send in reports, those reports would have to be reviewed and compiled and WotC would have to decide what to implement. Its Oct 5 today, there is no way that is less than a 2 month process. So that is Dec 5. And I'm sorry, but there is no way they arent hard into layout by then. They need the PHB to press (my guess only) by early Jan to make their release date. So what the heck is this playtesting for? I dont know. There is simply no time to incorporate anthing from playtesting given the timeline required to make a massive launch like this.

And if content can go out to playtesters, why cant it go out to third party publishers? That I dont know either.

But it isnt secrecy. I think it is simply staffing. They are cramming over there to get this done. A new edition is a MASSIVE undertaking. Heck, just coordinating all teh new art is a massive job. New layout. New design. New covers. Blah blah blah. Believe me, it isnt just writing the new content that makes for all the work.

And the bottom line is staffing. Say you are Bill S over there at WotC and you are jamming to get the edition out (and that is not a criticism by the way, find me one significant product or edition of a game or computer game that the developers arent cramming right before release, it is just the natural state of things) and you have to make staffing decisioins. What do you do? You need every body you have working to get this thing done. What kind of time do you have to dedicate to doing OGL issues? Now, in my view, the smart approach is to do what I suggested to them--send us draft PHBs with an email saying "for now, you can use this but not that, this will eventually be superceded by a more formal srd, place a notice in your products that any content used here pursuant to this permission is expressly revoked if the content is subsequently not included in a final srd." its that easy. But back to being Bill S--you have to staff this mofo and you need every body. I'm sure the thinking is that "once we hit pencil down on the phb in december (my guess, no inside info) we can deal with this third party thing." In my view, it is a pure staffing issue.

However, I don't understand how you think the up coming edition isn't grognard hostile. I can fully understand if they have decided that they need to avoid grognard capture in order to capture a younger, hipper, larger market. That's just business. But its pretty hard to convince me that decided to throw out 30 years of flavor because they thought the gamers steeped in the lore of the game would be exicted about it. As a setting supplement, sure, it's cool. But as core? It might be the smart move, but its certainly not grognard friendly. Outsider though I may be, I think I'm entitled to that opinion.

No game with Orcus on the cover of a book can be called "grognard hostile." In fact, I'm going to be a bit presumptious here, but I think WotC is well aware of teh grognard market and they want to include that market and they are specifically doing things to include the grognard element. Heck the secret name for 4e was "Orcus." Orcus is on the cover. Yes, they are changing some things and providing alternatives. But I dont think the game will be grognard hostile at all. They arent avoiding grognard capture at all, IMHO.

Clark
 

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